When did the Church Commit Apostasy?

Standing Up · Jul 10, 2009

cobweb said:
Sure you can. You make a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Apostolic Chuch. I simply say we disagree quite strongly on that point.

Of the 5 original patriarchates, one could possibly make the claim the the Oriental Orthodox are from the Church of Alexandria. I doubt anyone would deny that the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople are still in communion with each other. Of the five, four are not in communion with Rome.

You can't walk out of a room full of people and then complain that everyone left you.

Ummm, weren't there 7 original churches shown in Revelation?

itisdeliciouscake · Jul 10, 2009

Standing Up said:
Ummm, weren't there 7 original churches shown in Revelation?

I think it would jumping to conclusions to claim these churches were 'the 7 original churches'

doesn't say that in Scripture, you'd have to have some screwed up hermeneutics to make that claim.

they are simply 7 churches

GuardianShua · Jul 10, 2009

Fixation On God said:
I was joking about the scriptural proof part.

Anyway, the Church can't have failed after the close of the apostolic age. No matter what 'ravening wolves' and false teachings may have come out, Christ promised the Church would never, EVER fail. He also promised that Peter's faith would not fail, nor would that of his successors.

So, with all the heresies that have come out of various bishropics within the Church, the Church has never fallen from Christ's teachings as a whole. That is why heresies like Arianism, Machineanism, Monophysitism, and Gnosticism have been expunged from the Catholic Church.

Apparently you do not know the history of the Catholic Church.

GuardianShua · Jul 10, 2009

itisdeliciouscake said:
I think it would jumping to conclusions to claim these churches were 'the 7 original churches'

doesn't say that in Scripture, you'd have to have some screwed up hermeneutics to make that claim.

they are simply 7 churches

Standing Up said:
Ummm, weren't there 7 original churches shown in Revelation?

cobweb said:
Sure you can. You make a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is the One Holy Apostolic Chuch. I simply say we disagree quite strongly on that point.

Of the 5 original patriarchates, one could possibly make the claim the the Oriental Orthodox are from the Church of Alexandria. I doubt anyone would deny that the Churches of Jerusalem, Antioch, and Constantinople are still in communion with each other. Of the five, four are not in communion with Rome.

You can't walk out of a room full of people and then complain that everyone left you.

Revelation 1:19. "Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. 20. The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampsticks is this: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven congregations, and the seven lampsticks are the seven congregations.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 11, 2009

Fixation On God said:
My point was that Christ Himself promised, clearly and distinctly, that His Church would NOT fail.

Then start a thread about that.

Quote, verbatim, the Scripture you want to discuss.

Then, we'll see what Jesus specifically promised to The Catholic Denomination (or LDS or any other). We'll discuss whether Jesus made these promises, authorization, etc. to people or to some specific, individual, institutional denomination (RCC and LDS are the two known to me that so claim, each for itself alone).

.

2 King · Jul 11, 2009

Hi FoG,
when you stated

When did the Church Commit Apostasy?

With the Catholic Theology, this is a rhetoric question.
The answer (when thinking in a Catholic mindset) is no.
Because according to history, the CC never left Christ, and with Catholic Theology, the gates of hell never prevail againsts it.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 11, 2009

2 King said:
Hi FoG,

2 King said:
when you stated

With the Catholic Theology, this is a rhetoric question.

From the RCC perspective, you are correct. ANY teacher (person, denomination - whatever) that alone insists for self alone that self is INFALLIBLE is insisting on being unaccountable and regarded as INCAPABLE of error (at least in whatever areas where self alone declares self alone to be infallible).

This is just one example of what the RCC alone insists about itself alone, from its official Catechism, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms." (Catholic Catechism # 87). The RCC alone claims that when the RCC alone speaks, Jesus is speaking and all must accept WHATEVER it says "with docility." Why? Because it is Jesus speaking and because it says that it alone is INFALLIBLE and thus unaccountable and incapable of error. Thus, the whole issue of the RCC being wrong is impossible, from the RCC perspective. BTW, this Catechism Catechism paragraph is one of the FEW where Scripture is actually quoted - but no such verse exists. Jesus never said this to any Apostle (much less to the RCC denomination).

Of course, what this does is to simply make the teacher so self claiming for self alone unable to be examined since he/she/it cannot be regarded as accountable or potentially in error. Thus, it CANNOT be known if the teacher is correct or not: self has simply excluded self from examination. One has two options: accept whatever that teacher says with docility cuz that's what that one teacher so insists upon OR leave.

Because according to history, the CC never left Christ, and with Catholic Theology, the gates of hell never prevail againsts it.

On the nose....

In RCC theology, "church" in Scirpture is simply deleted in most cases and replaced with, "Catholic Church" - meaning itself alone, often as an attempt to justify its exemption of itself alone from accountablity. But this one is particularly weak. To say that Hell cannot stop the RCC has nothing whatsoever to do with the RCC being infallible/unaccountable. Hell has not stopped the Mormons guys from visiting the good folks in my apartment complex, but I would not say that THEREFORE the LDS is infallible/unaccountable, and whatever it says must be accepted "with docility" and whatever it says is what Jesus says. Pretty illogical to me.

.

Standing Up · Jul 11, 2009

itisdeliciouscake said:
I think it would jumping to conclusions to claim these churches were 'the 7 original churches'

doesn't say that in Scripture, you'd have to have some screwed up hermeneutics to make that claim.

they are simply 7 churches

Original is the wrong word. So what word?

Christ did NOT write to Jerusalem, Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, Gaul, Palestine, or other places, but to those 7 in Asia Minor.

We know some of the bishops there. Men like Polycarp, Polycrates, Melito, Sagaris, and others. Do you know their history against Rome and Alexandria?

CaDan · Jul 13, 2009

I haven't been hanging around GT very much lately. I am glad to see CaDan's Third Law still applies.

For the newcomers: CaDan's Three Laws of Discussing Christianity on the Internet.

1. Godwin's Law is incorporated by reference.
2. Whoever knows the most Greek wins.
3. In the end, it all comes down to ecclesiology.

CaDan · Jul 13, 2009

Fixation On God said:
That the Son of God, from the beginning to the end of the world, gathers, defends, and preserves (Matthew 16:18; John 10:28-30; Psalms 129:1-5) to himself by his Spirit and word, (Isaiah 59:21; Romans 1:16; Romans 10:14-17; Ephesians 5:26) out of the whole human race, (Genesis 26:4; Revelation 5:9) a church chosen to everlasting life, (Romans 8:29,30; Ephesians 1:10-13) agreeing in true faith; (Acts 2:46; Ephesians 4:3-6) and that I am and forever shall remain, (Psalms 23:6; 1 Corinthians 1:8,9; John 10:28; 1 John 2:19; 1 Peter 1:5) a living member. (1 John 3:14,19-21; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 8:10)

The Heidelberg Confession.

Fixation On God said:
The Church is described as the Body of which Jesus Christ is the Head and of which all baptized persons are members. It is called the People of God, the New Israel, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and the pillar and ground of truth. The Church is described as one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Church is one, because it is one Body, under one Head, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Church is catholic, because it proclaims the whole Faith to all people, to the end of time.

The Book of Common Prayer, 1979 version.

I'm not sure you want to rely on these sources if you are going to defend Roman priority. Just sayin'.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 13, 2009

Fixation On God said:
Stop flaming! You don't know what your saying.
God's eternal Son, who is, and continues (Romans 1:4; Romans 9:5) true and eternal God, (1 John 5:20; John 1:1; John 17:3; Romans 1:3; Colossians 1:15) took upon him the very nature of man, of the flesh and blood of the virgin Mary, (Galatians 4:4; Luke 1:31,42,43) by the operation of the Holy Ghost; (John 1:14; Matthew 1:18,20; Luke 1:32,35) that he might also be the true seed of David, (Psalms 132:11; Romans 1:3; 7:12; Acts 2:30)like unto his brethren in all things, (Philippians 2:7; Hebrews 2:14,17) sin excepted. (Hebrews 4:15)

baptism is instituted (Colossians 2:11-13) in the new covenant.

That the Son of God, from the beginning to the end of the world, gathers, defends, and preserves (Matthew 16:18; John 10:28-30; Psalms 129:1-5) to himself by his Spirit and word, (Isaiah 59:21; Romans 1:16; Romans 10:14-17; Ephesians 5:26) out of the whole human race, (Genesis 26:4; Revelation 5:9) a church chosen to everlasting life, (Romans 8:29,30; Ephesians 1:10-13) agreeing in true faith; (Acts 2:46; Ephesians 4:3-6) and that I am and forever shall remain, (Psalms 23:6; 1 Corinthians 1:8,9; John 10:28; 1 John 2:19; 1 Peter 1:5) a living member. (1 John 3:14,19-21; 2 Corinthians 13:5; Romans 8:10)

The Church is described as the Body of which Jesus Christ is the Head and of which all baptized persons are members. It is called the People of God, the New Israel, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and the pillar and ground of truth. The Church is described as one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Church is one, because it is one Body, under one Head, our Lord Jesus Christ. The Church is catholic, because it proclaims the whole Faith to all people, to the end of time.

If you remember reading: "Catholic means (Universal)"

The Church is apostolic, because it continues in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles and is sent to carry out Christ's mission to all people.

Tell you what...if you can show me, Scripturally, where the Bible is to be taken as the sole authority, I'll leave the Catholic Church.

Show me clear, unambiguous Scripture that states that Scripture contains ALL of God's teachings, and you've got yourself a convert.
Prove to me, without any possible misinterpretation, that the Bible claims to be the sole authority necessary for the Church, and I'll drop that Catholicism for good.

The statement was made that Jesus founded the Catholic denomination. I simply asked, "where?" To which there was no reply. Including from you.

Thanks for the affirmation of Protestantism.

Show me something other than the remarkable self-claim of self alone that The Catholic Denomination was and is infallible/unaccountable, incapable of error and apostasy, that what it says is what Jesus says - and I'll return to it.

.

boswd · Jul 13, 2009

Does the Lutheren Miss. Synod believe it's teachings are wrong?
Is the Lutheren Mis. Synod not in agreement with itself on their Doctrines?
Does the the Lutheren Mis. Synod look to other Christian Denominations such as the Baptists, Methodist etc for their approval of their doctrines?
Does the Lutheren Miss. Synod not believe fully and faithfully in it's own doctrines?

Just asking

OpenDoor · Jul 13, 2009

I don't feel the OP question has been addressed.

When did the (Catholic) Church Commit Apostasy?

CaDan · Jul 13, 2009

OpenDoor said:
I don't feel the OP question has been addressed.

When did the (Catholic) Church Commit Apostasy?

I don't think it did.

CaDan · Jul 13, 2009

P-Val!

You get in here and post, young man!

Standing Up · Jul 13, 2009

OpenDoor said:
I don't feel the OP question has been addressed.

When did the (Catholic) Church Commit Apostasy?

From circa 95/120ad (Pope Xystus I and Alexandria) until here:

325ad the Council/churches declared heretical those who followed the Quartodeciman practice of declaring the death of Jesus Christ on the 14th Thursday Passover, burial the 15th Friday Feast of Unleavened Bread, and resurrection on the third day. This was taught by Christ to the Apostles to their successors and is Scripture only.

341/2ad the Council/churches excommunicated those successors, Apostles, and Christ from the church.

OpenDoor · Jul 13, 2009

Standing Up said:
From circa 95/120ad (Pope Xystus I and Alexandria) until here:

325ad the Council/churches declared heretical those who followed the Quartodeciman practice of declaring the death of Jesus Christ on the 14th Thursday Passover, burial the 15th Friday Feast of Unleavened Bread, and resurrection on the third day. This was taught by Christ to the Apostles to their successors and is Scripture only.

341/2ad the Council/churches excommunicated those successors, Apostles, and Christ from the church.

so Saturday vs Sunday resurrection?

Standing Up · Jul 13, 2009

OpenDoor said:
so Saturday vs Sunday resurrection?

Not exactly. SDA and others think Christ died on Wed. and rose Sat. The Bible tells us in Acts (Peter and Cornelius) that is 4 days.

The Council/church declared heretical and excommunicated those who followed Christ, the Apostles, and their successors. 325 and 341. You wanted to know when. Circa 450, it was admitted (Proterius of Alexandria and Pope Leo I) that they changed the days and dates.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 14, 2009

OpenDoor said:
I don't feel the OP question has been addressed.

OpenDoor said:
When did the (Catholic) Church Commit Apostasy?

The question ASSUMES that Jesus founded a denomination, that that denomination was infallible/unaccountable and incapable of wrong - and yet (somehow) at some point, fell into apostasy.

This view - central to Restitutionalism (such as LDS) is contrary to Protestantism. Protestantism does NOT believe that Jesus EVER founded a specific, institutional denomination (RCC or LDS or any other). We believe that the church is US - all Christians (past and present) together. We believe that it is one and holy and catholic, not a denominational IT. Thus, there NEVER WAS a divinely instituted, infallible, unaccountable denomination that was perfect in every way. There NEVER WAS such a denomination TO fall, much less that IT did, according to Protestantism.

Thus, the question is irrelevant from a Protestant perspective - it assumes things we don't believe. It should be directed to Mormons at the LDS forum. It is the principle group that holds that the RCC was once perfect but slowly "fell" and so God's Denomination had to be re-founded, as God did with the LDS. In Mormonism, this "fall" is regarded to have begun as early as 100 AD but STILL is not total - there is still some remant of the true church in the RCC, just not much, according to the LDS. But again, this post should be posted in the LDS forum since they cannot post here and it assumes the RCC and LDS ecclesiology, not Protestant.

.

PT Calvinist · Jul 14, 2009

The question ASSUMES that Jesus founded a denomination, that that denomination was infallible/unaccountable and incapable of wrong - and yet (somehow) at some point, fell into apostasy.

That's why the posts of schismatics are pointless on this thread. your opinion dosen't matter since the OP isn't asking "Prove that the Church is not the RCC"

It's asking when did the "Church" (the RCC) commit Apostasy.

It hasn't, It's always expunged fallacy.

When did the Church Commit Apostasy?

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