Whatsoever you do to the least of My brethren, that you do unto Me.

Matrona · May 14, 2004

Some weeks ago, I was helping my parish priest prepare the church for an adult catechumen's baptism. Since mine's a small parish, he could easily remember baptizing me, and since my baptism was only the year before, and I was 19 at the time, I remember my own baptism pretty well too. So as we were setting things up, he asked me kind of jokingly if this was bringing back any memories for me, and in the same joking tone I said, "Barely!"

This, I believe, is sarcasm's innocent form.

nikephoros_spatharios · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
I guess the use of food can never reach gluttony?

Or the level of wine consumed can never reach drunkenness?

Sarcasm can be sinful, but it is not one of those things that are always sinful. Hence, it is not sinful in itself, but depending on context. Murder for example is always sinful, whereas love is always sinless. Sarcasm is sometimes sinful and sometimes not.

Being sarcastic against someone who can't solve a math problem for example is mean and sinful (IMO). Being sarcastic of heretics may not be sinful, e.g., if it helps those who hear you realize how foolish they are, and brings them closer to right belief. In many Church Fathers, e.g., we see sarcasm against astrology or other superstitions.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

Matrona said:
Some weeks ago, I was helping my parish priest prepare the church for an adult catechumen's baptism. Since mine's a small parish, he could easily remember baptizing me, and since my baptism was only the year before, and I was 19 at the time, I remember my own baptism pretty well too. So as we were setting things up, he asked me kind of jokingly if this was bringing back any memories for me, and in the same joking tone I said, "Barely!"

This, I believe, is sarcasm's innocent form.

Again from a linguistic point of view, this is not sarcasm. Perhaps a mild form of bantering, but not a biting sarcastic style.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

nikephoros_spatharios said:
Sarcasm can be sinful, but it is not one of those things that are always sinful. Hence, it is not sinful in itself, but depending on context. Murder for example is always sinful, whereas love is always sinless. Sarcasm is sometimes sinful and sometimes not.

Being sarcastic against someone who can't solve a math problem for example is mean and sinful (IMO). Being sarcastic of heretics may not be sinful, e.g., if it helps those who hear you realize how foolish they are, and brings them closer to right belief. In many Church Fathers, e.g., we see sarcasm against astrology or other superstitions.

Can you give an example of the use of sarcasm in the Church Fathers?

I think perhaps St. Basil did engage in sarcasm when he was younger, but repented of it as he grew older and wiser.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

I wonder about the person who said it was sinful to be sarcastic with Orthodox Christians but not sinful to be sarcastic with the non-Orthodox Christians. Does this same person believe that one can be sarcastic with Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims as long as one is charitable with Orthodox Christians?

Did he/she forget that Christ said to love our enemies? If we are sarcastic with our enemies, are we being loving toward them?

nikephoros_spatharios · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
Can you give an example of the use of sarcasm in the Church Fathers?

I think perhaps St. Basil did engage in sarcasm when he was younger, but repented of it as he grew older and wiser.

How about this? In my opinion, this is sarcasm:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html#HOMILY_I

(2) Look at it in another way. What sort of ark is it that the Jews now have, where we find no propitiatory, no tables of the law, no holy of holies, no veil, no high priest, no incense, no holocaust, no sacrifice, none of the other things that made the ark of old solemn and august? It seems to me that the ark the Jews now have is no better off than those toy arks which you can buy in the market place. in fact it is much worse. Those little toy arks cannot hurt anybody who comes close to them. But the ark which the Jews now have does great harm each day to those who come near it.

Momzilla · May 14, 2004

Chanter (or anyone else), any thoughts on the example that I offered?

countrymousenc · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!

Elizabeth, this sounds sarcastic to me. Of course, you may not have intended it as such.

Right now I'm having difficulty not using the rolleyes in response to this entire thread.

This seems rather petty. Sorry.

twosid · May 14, 2004

You also have to be careful to not take what God may be doing in your life and try to force it on others. God does different things with different people at different times and it won't work to try and force any issue on someone by insisting that they see what you see. Your spirit and its current condition is in a different state than everyone elses and only when/if theirs gets to where yours is on a particular point will you see eye to eye. I'm not saying you are doing this....its just a thought.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

Momzilla said:
Okay, here's my example. Let's say I have a friend who wins a million dollars. She says she's going to give away $1,000. I think she needs to give more than that, but I know that if I tell her so directly, she'll get defensive and nothing will be accomplished. So instead I say something like, "Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself!"

I have clearly used sarcasm, but provided my tone is appropriate (chiding her lovingly instead of expressing disdain), I don't think what I've done is a sin.

Pardon me for saying this, but from a linguistic point of view (semantics/pragmatics) the sentence that you've written here is very ambiguous. Only when uttered will the true meaning come out due to inflections in the voice along with the general ascending or descending patterns.

(a) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - literally means 'Stop, before you consider giving away all your money, keep some for yourself."

(b) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - literally can mean the same as the first example. = save a little money for yourself.

(c) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - here it can have sarcastic overtones, but not very clear ones, as not everyone would get the point. If they did get the intended point, then this utterance could be considered very bossy and sinful, as the money is theirs to spend as they please.

In this case, silence is golden. Silence can say more than words. Silence can save face but at the same time point out that something is wrong.

Do you see the point I am trying to make? I guess I can be considered bossy for bringing up this whole thread idea. However, I did so because I noticed a particular trend among some of us to use sarcasm with those of different religions, and to think that it's not a sin. *

My priest said that we should treat all men with charity, even those who would kill us. Christ asked us: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. For what does it profit a man to give when he can expect something in return. (paraphrasing the Bible).

Controlling my tongue is something I am trying to do, although I do admit that I struggle greatly in this area. Someone wrote that the tongue is the most difficult part of the body to learn to control, if we ever learn to control it in this lifetime.

* P.S. Then there is the pernicious thinking that ignorance is bliss. Well, according to the State and Federal Laws, if you violate the law due to lack of knowledge, even if a parking sign is totally covered by a tree maintained by the city, you have still violated the law and must pay the penalty.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
I guess you must be a person who has great restraint and is able to avoid sin when using sarcasm. How great a linguist you must be!

countrymousenc said:
Elizabeth, this sounds sarcastic to me. Of course, you may not have intended it as such.

Dear Dianne:

I wrote the above in frustration, not sarcasm. I am a linguist and realize how difficult it is to write and especially to speak clear utterances which avoid all ambiguity and sarcasm. For me it's impossible, but with God all things are possible; hence, the necessity of prayer and fasting to learn to control my tongue. For this reason I find myself continually editing my posts so that my message is clear and honest, charitable and polite, brief, and relevant to the conversation at hand (following Grice's four maxims of conversation: clarity, relevance, quality and quantity).

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

nikephoros_spatharios said:
How about this? In my opinion, this is sarcasm:

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sour...6.html#HOMILY_I

(2) Look at it in another way. What sort of ark is it that the Jews now have, where we find no propitiatory, no tables of the law, no holy of holies, no veil, no high priest, no incense, no holocaust, no sacrifice, none of the other things that made the ark of old solemn and august? It seems to me that the ark the Jews now have is no better off than those toy arks which you can buy in the market place. in fact it is much worse. Those little toy arks cannot hurt anybody who comes close to them. But the ark which the Jews now have does great harm each day to those who come near it.

Click to expand...

Dear Oblio: Could you comment on the Fordham file - is this even considered accurate or is it a forgery?

Dear Nikephoros:

Perhaps if you look at St. John's sermon about the Empress you might find some sarcasm, perhaps not. St. John openly corrected the Empress for vanity during one of his sermons. Since this was a public correction, it's probably not considered sarcasm. I think we tend to confuse sarcasm with a correction.

Any way the story goes that the Empress was very vain and had a carving of her bust displayed everywhere in Constantinople. So St. John Chrysostom gave a sermon on humility and used her as an example of what not to do. For this he was exiled and died shortly after.

Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

My purpose in starting this thread was to search with you and see if sarcasm is always sinful. My hypothesis is that it's not sinful if used to humble oneself, but it probably is if we direct sarcasm against another.

Momzilla · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
Pardon me for saying this, but from a linguistic point of view (semantics/pragmatics) the sentence that you've written here is very ambiguous. Only when uttered will the true meaning come out due to inflections in the voice along with the general ascending or descending patterns.

(c) Whoa, now! Keep a little for yourself! - here it can have sarcastic overtones, but not very clear ones, as not everyone would get the point. If they did get the intended point, then this utterance could be considered very bossy and sinful, as the money is theirs to spend as they please.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. If I were actually in the situation I described, I would most likely use inflection c, and I think it would quite clearly be sarcasm. However, I don't think it would *necessarily* be sinful. Yes, the money is hers to do with as she pleases, but if I see her acting out of greed, do I not have a duty to suggest to her that giving away more might be better? And should I not do it in the most loving and yet effective way I can?

So, I stand by my view that sarcasm is not always sin.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

Momzilla said:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. If I were actually in the situation I described, I would most likely use inflection c, and I think it would quite clearly be sarcasm. However, I don't think it would *necessarily* be sinful. Yes, the money is hers to do with as she pleases, but if I see her acting out of greed, do I not have a duty to suggest to her that giving away more might be better? And should I not do it in the most loving and yet effective way I can?

So, I stand by my view that sarcasm is not always sin.

Can youplease rephrase your declaration so that it is not sarcastic and still saves face without being bossy? Bossiness is butting into another's affairs without being invited to do so.

Linguists say that this is very difficult to do but the use of silence and nonverbals can help.

If you find an answer, please let me know for the benefit of all of us. I especialy would like to know.

countrymousenc · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
My purpose in starting this thread was to search with you and see if sarcasm is always sinful.

Nothing wrong with that, but would you be interested to hear how your arguments have looked to another?

My hypothesis is that it's not sinful if used to humble oneself, but it probably is if we direct sarcasm against another.

Against another, yes. However, I sometimes use sarcasm with my children to get a point across - not as an attack, but to bypass what we moms call "convenient hearing loss." The point is to redirect their attention (and it usually gets a grin, too).

Perhaps this thread went awry because we all neglected to first agree about a definition of sarcasm?

Momzilla · May 14, 2004

chanter said:
Can youplease rephrase your declaration so that it is not sarcastic and still saves face without being bossy? Bossiness is butting into another's affairs without being invited to do so.

Linguists say that this is very difficult to do but the use of silence and nonverbals can help.

If you find an answer, please let me know for the benefit of all of us. I especialy would like to know.

Well of course I can: "Dear friend, I know that it's none of my business how you spend your winnings, but $1 million is a lot of money; perhaps you would consider giving away more than $1,000?"

But, I thought you had asked me for an example of sarcasm that is not sinful. I did my best to come up with one; we just disagree about whether I succeeded or not.

It also seems that we disagree about whether one christian can butt into the affairs of another, I think we have an affirmative duty to do so when we see a Christian brother or sister going astray. That, however, is another thread.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

Momzilla said:
Well of course I can: "Dear friend, I know that it's none of my business how you spend your winnings, but $1 million is a lot of money; perhaps you would consider giving away more than $1,000?"

But, I thought you had asked me for an example of sarcasm that is not sinful. I did my best to come up with one; we just disagree about whether I succeeded or not.

It also seems that we disagree about whether one christian can butt into the affairs of another, I think we have an affirmative duty to do so when we see a Christian brother or sister going astray. That, however, is another thread.

We do have an obligation to correct - to save others from hell - but the question is how to do it politely and lovingly.

I guess our basic premise is different. You feel that sarcasm can be done in a correct non-sinful way. I feel it's rare if at all possible.

Does anyone have a prescriptive English Grammar book that defines sarcasm?
How do the scholars view sarcasm? How does the Church view sarcasm? Most importantly, how does Christ view the use of sarcasm?

Honestly, I don't really know these answers.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

Photini · May 14, 2004

I think I remember a quote somewhere addressing sarcasm. I tried to dig it up a few months ago, but could not find it. Maybe I'll try again.

I don't really know, and can't say for anyone else. But for me, taking my past into account, sarcasm is a passion. I've always had a dry sense of humor, and sometimes people don't know whether to laugh at something I just said or not.
Furthermore, I discovered many underhanded uses for sarcasm along the way.

So while it may not be a sin all the time (I don't know), I believe sarcasm is more apt to be sinful than otherwise.

BTW, how can someone use sarcasm to humble oneself? I don't understand that.

MariaRegina · May 14, 2004

Photini said:
BTW, how can someone use sarcasm to humble oneself? I don't understand that.

Making belitting remarks about oneself when someone else attempts flattery.

Whatsoever you do to the least of My brethren, that you do unto Me.

According to the Holy Orthodox Church and the Bible is sarcasm a sin?

Yes, sarcasm is always sinful.

Yes, sarcasm is sinful except when I use it to humble myself.

It's a sin only if used against a fellow Orthodox Christian.

No, it's never a sin.

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