Whats Wrong with Liberals anyway?

fragmentsofdreams · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by paulewog
Jesus was not a liberal in today's terms, Mr. Freud

For one thing, he allowed his disciples to carry weapons.....

And the one time that they used them they were reprimanded.

Also, when He sent His disciples out to preach the Gospel, He did not allow them to carry any weapons.

fragmentsofdreams · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by paulewog
I basically (would/will) vote conservative/republican

Liberals (which most democrats are) seem to have a bity more problems being completely truthful and open as well as practicing what they preach.

Another example of non-tolerance: Christianity in schools....

I actually find it kinda revolting that the Bible, which this country was founded upon, essentially, is now almost forbidden completely in schools. And, if you take one in, you'll at BEST be ridiculed for it. That or sent to a psychologist to see what's wrong with you if you're bringing THAT book

(little sarcasm, but the point is in there, I hope you find it )

You will also get ridiculed if you walk around with socks on your hands. Is that also a liberal conspiracy?

The problem is not with a group of political leaders banning the Bible. It is with a few students and perhaps some teachers.

PastorFreud · Nov 15, 2002

Fragments of Dreams,

Would you stop confusing this thread with logic?  Somebody might come to see that the categories don't really work!  

Extirpated Wildlife · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by PastorFreud

If the Bible was not so scoffed at today, why is it EVERYONE complains about the 10 Commandments being hung on the wall? I think most people agree with the commandments themselves - idolatry, murder, adultery, etc... so why complain about it? [/qoute]

Maybe because the primary people behind this movement are people with a theocratic political agenda?

I personally don't mind the 10 commandments being displayed anywhere. To me they represent an initial form of law making. The first five commandments are the ones that have more to do with religion than public order. (Although some would argue that honoring God leads to better public order, others might disagree.) But I wouldn't have a problem with other law related statues being displayed, like the one John Ashcroft wants to hide behind a curtain.

One Nation Under God ..... Afghanistan

Click to expand...

First thing: Do you feel there is a problem with a theocratical political agenda?

Second thing: Do you think that it would be okay to post in all classrooms the 10 laws that youth are most likely to commit?
10. You should not murder.
9. You should not do drugs.
8. You should not drink.
7. You should not steal.
6. You should not threaten your fellow student.
5. You should not have sex.
4. You should not throw spitballs.
3. You should not lie.
2. You should not skip class.
1. You should not swear.

These are in no particular order.

Third thing: Are Conservatives misguided in your view?

fragmentsofdreams · Nov 15, 2002

The problem with theocracy is that it runs contrary to any religion based on anything other than works. If Jesus wanted to force people to live a certain way, He would have conquered the world and established a theocrary Himself. However, He had a different plan in mind.

PastorFreud · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by quizzler
First thing: Do you feel there is a problem with a theocratical political agenda?

Yes.  It is totally contrary to the teachings of Christ.  Christ always advocated the power of love and persuasion, never the overpowering of others.

Second thing: Do you think that it would be okay to post in all classrooms the 10 laws that youth are most likely to commit?
10. You should not murder.
9. You should not do drugs.
8. You should not drink.
7. You should not steal.
6. You should not threaten your fellow student.
5. You should not have sex.
4. You should not throw spitballs.
3. You should not lie.
2. You should not skip class.
1. You should not swear.

These are in no particular order.

I don't quite get you here.  The rules of a school are given to students in the handbook and most schools are requiring signatures that affirm the student has read and will abide by the rules.  Your list of rules has some of the typical rules, is missing several important ones, and has some that I'm not sure whether you mean "ever" or in class.  School administrators cannot control behavior that takes place outside the classroom.

[/QUOTE]
Third thing: Are Conservatives misguided in your view? [/QUOTE]

Not all conservatives.  Some are.  Some are not necessarily misguided as much as not embracing both sides of an issue.  While I agree with some of the conservative goals, I disagree with the methods used to get there.  For example, I believe school teachers need to be held accountable.  We have too many teachers who don't know how to teach and who have very old and outdated understandings.  On the other hand, a uniform test of student's abillities is not the solution for determining which teachers can teach.  Some teachers teach mostly middle class white kids in the suburbs.  Others teach mostly non-white kids in the inner city.  The inner city teacher may be a good teacher, but this is not reflected in test scores because the population is transient and academic progress is impeded by social problems.  The suburb teacher may have better test scores, but it may be because half the class receives private tutoring, not because he or she can teach.  This goes back the first post in this thread.  Some of us, (I wouldn't exactly say I'm a liberal), see complexity and believe the problems deserve a sophisticated solution and not just a plattitude.

paulewog · Nov 15, 2002

About the weapons - Peter was reprimanded, yes. But why is it Jesus ALLOWED them to carry them if there was no need whatsoever? Apparently, it wasn't wrong, and Jesus saw no problem with it.

When He sent them out, it seems to me He sent them out with very little....

Pastor Freud - God, through the Holy Ghost, penned by Paul, advocated the government. Paul said that it was ordained by God for the punishment of evildoers. Or maybe it was through Peter, I forgot which book that's in

Annabel Lee · Nov 15, 2002

Why is it assumed that a 'liberal' wouldn't own a gun?

Blindfaith · Nov 15, 2002

Hey paulewog ~

It was Paul in the book of Romans.  Want specifics, let me know.....

carry on.......

~Peace in Christ,

Terri

coastie · Nov 15, 2002

Originally posted by PastorFreud
Hmm.... There are no atheists in fox holes?  

Ok, you could be right.  That would mean there are religious fanatics in the foxholes on one side trying to kill the religious fanatics in foxholes on the other side.  How many wars were started over atheism?

SO there is only one way or the other. Either you are an atheist or a religious fanatic... which are you?

I think you are over simplifying.

PastorFreud · Nov 16, 2002

Originally posted by coastie
SO there is only one way or the other. Either you are an atheist or a religious fanatic... which are you?

I think you are over simplifying.

Of course I am.  Does that make me a conservative as suggested by the article?  You want to say this is more complicated?  You must be a liberal.

I don't believe there are no atheists in the foxhole.  Nor do I think that everyone who is religious is a fanatic.  But in reponse to the suggestion that everyone in the foxhole is a person of faith, I suggested that wars are fought over faith.  Not lack of it. 

coastie · Nov 16, 2002

mmm, but not all wars are...

ok, do you agree that all arguments that conservatives simplify everything and arguments that liberals are wusses are now officially null and viod so that the real discussion can begin, minus the trite party slurrs?

Zorobabel · Nov 16, 2002

I believe that most wars that have been started over religion usually have deeper purposes, but they use religion as a cover and a means to get popular support. I've never agreed with the "most wars are fought over religion" belief. The only part of WW2 that had any religious significance was the Holocaust. The Nazis weren't invading European nations to press their ideal. Hitler invaded Russia and killed 18 million civilians (as well as millions of soldiers), religion had nothing to do with it. Japan invaded China and killed 10 million civilians as well as millions of soldiers and religion played no part except to dull the mind of the Japanese troops. WWI wasn't started because of religion. Was religion involved: Spanish-American war? Nope. Mexican-American war? No. Mexican-American war? No. Civil War? No, though religion could have been used by Southern leaders to gain support. War of 1812? No. Revolutionary War? Sort of.

The argument just doesn't hold much water. The whole problem is individuals who are power hungry (minus this whole Al-Qaeda deal). In America we have semi-detained that through the whole "capitalism" thing. Anyway, that's just what I think.

Susan · Nov 16, 2002

There are different kinds of liberals BTW:

Social liberals are people who work for the improvement/betterment of society through classicly "liberal" means such as legislation and government agencies/programs. They can come from even the most religiously conservative of backgrounds.

Practical liberals are people who feel that certain "restrictions" that are a secondary or tertiary part of Christian belief do not apply or are irrelevant. For example, a practical liberal may drink, gamble, read Harry Potter, or a list of any other things of this order which most "conservatives" consider positively demonic. Practical liberals can be theologically conservative (I know one who is exactly that) or theologically liberal.

Partial theological liberals are people who give more liberal interpretations to theological doctrines which are important but not of salvific judgment. For example, a partial theological liberal may believe in old earth Creation or even theistic evolution, or may believe that an actual sin is not a sin. However, such doctrinal errors, while serious, do not prevent their holder from having a genuine, saving faith in Jesus Christ.

Total theological liberals deny salvific doctrines: i.e. those crucial to salvation such as the Virgin Birth and Deity of Jesus Christ, the miracles of Jesus, personal salvation through personal faith in the sacrificial death of Jesus, and the bodily Resurrection of Jesus from the grave. This liberalism is the only kind that is dangerous to salvation itself.

Please do not confuse these liberals. All except the last (total theological) can indeed have a real, personal, saving faith in Christ.

PastorFreud · Nov 16, 2002

I sort of don't fit any of these liberal categories listed. Can we create a few more?

And Coastie, we were having a valid discussion, just a little fun too along the way.

Extirpated Wildlife · Nov 18, 2002

Originally posted by PastorFreud
Yes.  [Theocratical political agenda] is totally contrary to the teachings of Christ; Christ always advocated the power of love and persuasion, never the overpowering of others.

If you are talking about the power of God's love, then yes. I dont understand what you mean be the power of persuasion.

Maybe my understanding of what a theocratical political agenda is not right. But could you define, in your own words, what a theocratical political agenda is? Thanks.

----regarding my 10 rules i, quizzler listed, listed-------
[/QUOTE] I don't quite get you here. The rules of a school are given to students in the handbook and most schools are requiring signatures that affirm the student has read and will abide by the rules.  Your list of rules has some of the typical rules, is missing several important ones, and has some that I'm not sure whether you mean "ever" or in class.  School administrators cannot control behavior that takes place outside the classroom.
[/QUOTE]

Let's be real. No kid is going to read their rules given in some handbook all the time. It gets thrown to the side, if not thrown away.

I felt that you had a problem with the 10 commandments because they had God involved so i made another 10 student commandments. We could put them in every school room and they would always be reminded of them. Doesn't mean they won't do these, but you want to talk about persuasion. This is a persuasive way to do it.

[/QUOTE]
Third thing: Are Conservatives misguided in your view? [/QUOTE]

Not all conservatives.  Some are.  Some are not necessarily misguided as much as not embracing both sides of an issue.  While I agree with some of the conservative goals, I disagree with the methods used to get there.  For example, I believe school teachers need to be held accountable.  We have too many teachers who don't know how to teach and who have very old and outdated understandings.  On the other hand, a uniform test of student's abillities is not the solution for determining which teachers can teach.  Some teachers teach mostly middle class white kids in the suburbs.  Others teach mostly non-white kids in the inner city.  The inner city teacher may be a good teacher, but this is not reflected in test scores because the population is transient and academic progress is impeded by social problems.  The suburb teacher may have better test scores, but it may be because half the class receives private tutoring, not because he or she can teach.  This goes back the first post in this thread.  Some of us, (I wouldn't exactly say I'm a liberal), see complexity and believe the problems deserve a sophisticated solution and not just a plattitude. [/B][/QUOTE]

There should be a reasonable amount of information that all teachers of each grade level should know. Don't you agree?

Hector Medina · Nov 21, 2002

Everythings wrong w/ the Liberals!

Kennedy's,Clinton,etc.......

Whats the point of having individual states w/ a central goverenment?

I'm proud to be a Texan and I love our governer,I don't wanto be a assimilted D.C. american why would I want bureacrats 2000 miles away amking my states decisions!

They take their stand on MURDER(Abortion).

Their IS NO reason to commit this horrible sin and alomot all people who do it regret it!

They take their stand on teaching a horrible SIN/DISORDER(homosexuality) like its normal!

They take their stand on collaberating minorities!

I'm not going to vote for you if your Black,Hispanic,Oriental or Australian Aborigine,I'm going to vote for you if your GOOD!

I'm not going to vote for dishonest politicians that will try to delay the contest with overexaturating ballot errors like Gore did!

I'd possibly vote for any of the other 3 parties Republican(which I vote right now),Libertarian and Green BUT NEVER DEMOCRATIC!

In Christ,

Hector

Gerry · Nov 23, 2002

God gants ILLIGETIMATE POWER???

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Originally posted by PastorFreud
Read carefully.

Why do conservatives oversimplify everything?

Listening to the debate over going to war with Saddam Hussein reminds me of one of the big differences between a liberal and conservative mindset. Conservatives tend to see things in terms of my way or the highway. Saddams an evil influence; weve got to wipe him out. We know he's evil because our president said so. So what if we made Saddam into the man he is today. He gets what he deserves for turning his back on us. Liberals have a typical habit of using their brains for more than just accepting the latest propaganda: Wait a minute. Things in the Middle East is a snarled ball of yarn. We should act, but do so wisely and carefully so we do not repeat history's worst tragedies.

According to this over simplified scheme of things, conservatives tend to go to war shooting and bombing when diplomacy hasn't even been given a chance. Just kill them all and let God sort them out. Liberals instead make attempts to use diplomacy and engage the world community in solution finding.
Conservatives just don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. They at an election law in New Jersey that plainly says you cant replace a candidate on the ballot within 51 days of the election. No replacement possible, they claim when our opponent drops out of the race; he missed the deadline by more than two weeks. They know that they have broken similar rules in other states. To them the law only applies when it is to their own advantage. But you dont understand! Say liberals. Its much more complicated than you know. Weve got to take a great deal more into account. The law is old and unprepared for special situations! In an unusual case like this, we have to find out what voters really want! Conservatives only care what the voters want when it is to their political advantage.

Conservatives argue for execution of everyone who even seems to be guilty, regardless of mounting evidence that our justice system is flawed. Liberals argue for fair and humane treatment, which sometimes includes recognizing and treating mental illness. Conservatives try to pin on liberals the dishonest manipulations of greedly lawyers.

Conservatives say divorce is bad, yet they divorce at higher rates than any other group. They say God hates it, but they do it anyway. Liberals say it depends on the circumstances, and that you will probably never fully understand all the difficult things that were going on, and that you will probably never know how much these people have suffered. (Some conservatives are finally seeing the light on this.)

Conservatives cheered but liberals rolled their eyes almost 20 years ago when Ronald Reagan spoke of the Soviet Union as an evil empire. Conservatives are a bloodthirsty bunch. Now when George W. Bush speaks about an axis of evil, the bloodthirst is again clear. It seems the goal of world domination is a conservatives dream. Might makes right. Conservatives thrive under such blunt simplicity. Liberals groan in sophisticated disdain of the use of illegitimate power.

In good conservative fashion, they simplify by creating God in their own image. They say that the tendency to keep at least big things simple is rooted in the character of God Himself. They believe God made the earth in six days because the Bible says so, but never even realize what kind of literature they are reading. They say God called the light day, and the darkness He called Night. There was a tree of life and a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve could be in the garden or they could be thrown out. You were either on Noahs arc or you drowned.

Liberals are less concerned with these dichotomies and more concerned that Genesis is an affirmation of life. God created humanity and called it good. He created male and female in equality. The see the primary thrust of Scripture being the redemption of humankind, not the condemnation of humankind.

Conservatives say Lets get to the point, meaning let's get to my point and my point only.

Liberals say Lets understand the complexities of this situation so that we respond as mature people in ways that demonstrate the love and compassion of Christ!

Christ was a dirty hippie, a liberal Jew. He was killed by the ultra-conservative leaders of his day. Think about it.

Read more here: http://www.liberalslikechrist.org/religiousmenu.htm

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