What's our motivation?

Soon144k · Jan 18, 2011

Princessdi said:
That is indeed new, and different, I might add.......

It is exactly what Jesus Christ teaches. I find it so interesting that so many people who make the claim of being a Christian don't know much about what Jesus Christ taught. They have Paul down pat, but not the words and teachings of Jesus.

Joe67 · Jan 18, 2011

Princessdi said:
That is indeed new, and different, I might add.......

Princessdi,

We are called/counted to be something that we are not. It is imputed to us as creatures for our outward man.

Rom 8:19-21
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. KJV

The image of Christ is reflected in our hearts and minds, our inward man.

Rom 8:14-18
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. KJV

2 Cor 3:14-4:1
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. KJV

Joe

Soon144k · Jan 19, 2011

Princessdi,
What Joe67 has just described is the gnosticism of Paul; the separation between the body and the spirit. Jesus NEVER made this distinction. Just because Paul said it does not make it right, when compared with what Jesus Christ said to His own eyewitness disciples.

Joe67 · Jan 19, 2011

Matt 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. KJV

John 3:6-8
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. KJV

Joe

Soon144k · Jan 19, 2011

The 'breath' that God infused in all biological life is n'shama (Hebrew) and is not sentient. It is this breath that provides life to the body. In humans this spirit and the body in combination make what is termed the 'soul', which is the part of us that is self aware and God aware. If either the 'spirit' or the 'body' becomes missing then the 'soul' goes out like a light. Paul teaches that the 'soul' is the 'spirit' and that when you die the 'soul' goes back to the Father, and is conscious; 'absent in the body . . . with the Lord'. This is a lie.

Princessdi · Jan 19, 2011

Aaaaahhhhh! Thank you Soon. It sounded a bit familiar, but I could not put my finger on it.

Soon144k said:
Princessdi,
What Joe67 has just described is the gnosticism of Paul; the separation between the body and the spirit. Jesus NEVER made this distinction. Just because Paul said it does not make it right, when compared with what Jesus Christ said to His own eyewitness disciples.

Soon144k · Jan 19, 2011

You are welcome, Princessdi.

Joe67 · Jan 20, 2011

John 6:53-56
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
KJV

John 6:60
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? KJV

John 6:61-64
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
KJV

Some/many are ordained to believe not and walk away/backward when the offense comes and one is ordained to betray while professing to believe and giving his master a kiss. Both are motivated.

Joe

Soon144k · Jan 20, 2011

Jesus never disassociated the mind from the body as does Paul. Paul claims that the body can sin while the mind/spirit remains righteous. For Jesus it is the combination of the two (spirit and body) that created the whole person, and this whole person either is moving toward righteousness via the process of sanctification or they are moving away from righteousness.

Joe67 · Jan 20, 2011

Matt 7:11
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
KJV

Rom 7:21
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
KJV

Joe

Soon144k · Jan 21, 2011

Joe67 said:
Matt 7:11
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children,
KJV

Rom 7:21
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
KJV

Joe

Joe,
The Romans text makes a good point: Paul admitted that 'evil is present with me', meaning in him. He stated as much in 2Cor.12:7 when he said that he was given a 'messenger of Satan'. Is not a 'messenger of Satan' evil? It is through this evil entity that Paul received the idea that the 'Law' was what established evil in the world, and that before the Law appeared there was no evil. This is also why Paul stated "where there is no Law there is no violation".

It seems to me that Paul was 'hell bent' on getting rid of the Law. I wonder why?

Your thoughts?

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 21, 2011

Soon144k said:
Joe,
The Romans text makes a good point: Paul admitted that 'evil is present with me', meaning in him. He stated as much in 2Cor.12:7 when he said that he was given a 'messenger of Satan'. Is not a 'messenger of Satan' evil? It is through this evil entity that Paul received the idea that the 'Law' was what established evil in the world, and that before the Law appeared there was no evil. This is also why Paul stated "where there is no Law there is no violation".

It seems to me that Paul was 'hell bent' on getting rid of the Law. I wonder why?

Your thoughts?

Just wondering Soon, if you don't think Paul was inspired in his writings does that not jeapordize the validity of the New testament?

I prefer to believe that the writings of Paul are easily misunderstood but when compared with the teaching from other apostles or Christ Himself, they are able to be understood in the same vein.

Soon144k · Jan 22, 2011

EastCoastRemnant said:
Just wondering Soon, if you don't think Paul was inspired in his writings does that not jeapordize the validity of the New testament?

I prefer to believe that the writings of Paul are easily misunderstood but when compared with the teaching from other apostles or Christ Himself, they are able to be understood in the same vein.

My understanding is that God the Father sent Jesus His Son to clarify what it is that we need to know to be saved. If what you say about Paul is true, that he is easily to misunderstand, then would this not be self defeating. Is not Jesus Christ able to make the truth clear to anyone who wants to know the truth through either direct contact or through the power of the Holy Spirit, especially someone that has been called to be an apostle? If it really was Jesus Christ that met with Paul on the road to Damascus, and Jesus as the Son of God would be able to make completely clear to Paul the truth about salvation, then why would Paul have any problem with being understood (or misunderstood) by anyone that is a truth seeker? I don't see this as being possible. This is one of the many reasons why I believe that Paul is not who the Christian church believes him to be.

Joe67 · Jan 22, 2011

Soon144k said:
Joe,
The Romans text makes a good point: Paul admitted that 'evil is present with me', meaning in him. He stated as much in 2Cor.12:7 when he said that he was given a 'messenger of Satan'. Is not a 'messenger of Satan' evil? It is through this evil entity that Paul received the idea that the 'Law' was what established evil in the world, and that before the Law appeared there was no evil. This is also why Paul stated "where there is no Law there is no violation".

It seems to me that Paul was 'hell bent' on getting rid of the Law. I wonder why?

Your thoughts?

Soon,

The wisdom of Jesus, written in Mathew, gave me to hear His Voice and see His wisdom in His testimony through His apostolic servant, Paul.

Rom 7:25
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; KJV

1 Cor 9:21
(being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) KJV

Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. KJV

Rom 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. KJV

Rom 7:9-10
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. KJV

1 Cor 15:29-31
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.KJV

I hope this is the experience of each of us as the commandment comes to us and is written upon our hearts and minds that sin will rise up in us and slay us spiritually, daily, continuously. Then as we are constantly crucified with Christ, we will be always bearing about in our body the dying of the Lord Jesus that his life may be constantly revealed to those we serve in the newness of the Spirit.

Joe

Soon144k · Jan 22, 2011

You have given a wonderful example of the confusion that comes from Paul in your statement; NONE of what you said in your closing statement comes from the words of Jesus Christ. Herein lays the confusion; Jesus did not say that we are to be slain in the spirit, or that we must die with Christ daily, or that we need to bear the dying body of Jesus in our lives so that His life may be revealed to us through the Spirit. If Paul is correct in this (because it is from him that you have learned these things) then what Jesus taught to His own disciples was either incorrect or incomplete; and this cannot be since Jesus Christ is the Son of God and cannot be either incorrect or incomplete in what He said or did.

So in this regard Paul is unnecessary or a hindrance to truth at the very least, or anathema to truth at the very worst. Would God really feel it necessary to call an apostle for the purpose of explaining how salvation operates when Jesus came to earth to accomplish that very thing, even to the extent of saying that "It is finished"? What was finished? Certainly not the accomplishment of all things included in the prophecy of Dan.9:24, because this has not yet occurred. What was 'finished' was the testimony of Jesus Christ to His own disciples, who would testify to all they had seen and heard, whereby His other bondservants (us) would have the whole truth and nothing but the truth with which to understand how salvation operates in their lives.

I cannot see how Paul in any way helped this process along; in fact his appearance confused the process such that today Christians believe the words and teachings of Paul as if they were in fact the very words of Jesus Christ Himself-and this is just not so.

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 22, 2011

I have to agree that alot of Christians today would be better called Paulites.

All that the new covenant Christian needs for instruction is spoken by Christ. All that the covenant contains was set before His death on the cross. Everything after that, save Revelation, was, as one infamous poster on here likes to say, commentary.

Soon144k · Jan 23, 2011

Where is it said that there is a 'new' covenant? What was wrong with the first covenant that it would need to be replaced by another 'better' covenant? If there is a 'better' covenant would that not mean that God is a failure because when He made the first Covenant with Israel (at that time the Kingdom of Heaven, but not now) it was somehow 'faulty'? Can God make a covenant that is 'faulty', or is the fault simply with those to whom the covenant was given?

EastCoastRemnant · Jan 23, 2011

The new covenant is the same as the old in the sense of the promises, blessings and curses that God laid out for the Israelites and the obedience to His Law. So you're right, God's side of the contract remains the same. What has changed is from our perspective. We no longer have feasts and sacrifices as Christ represents that. We have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Law written on our hearts to guide us instead.

God is certainly not double minded and I think that we need to understand that everything that did not have a fulfillment in the death and resurrection of Jesus, is still in effect.

Joe67 · Jan 23, 2011

Soon144k said:
You have given a wonderful example of the confusion that comes from Paul in your statement; NONE of what you said in your closing statement comes from the words of Jesus Christ. Herein lays the confusion; Jesus did not say that we are to be slain in the spirit, or that we must die with Christ daily, or that we need to bear the dying body of Jesus in our lives so that His life may be revealed to us through the Spirit. If Paul is correct in this (because it is from him that you have learned these things) then what Jesus taught to His own disciples was either incorrect or incomplete; and this cannot be since Jesus Christ is the Son of God and cannot be either incorrect or incomplete in what He said or did.

So in this regard Paul is unnecessary or a hindrance to truth at the very least, or anathema to truth at the very worst. Would God really feel it necessary to call an apostle for the purpose of explaining how salvation operates when Jesus came to earth to accomplish that very thing, even to the extent of saying that "It is finished"? What was finished? Certainly not the accomplishment of all things included in the prophecy of Dan.9:24, because this has not yet occurred. What was 'finished' was the testimony of Jesus Christ to His own disciples, who would testify to all they had seen and heard, whereby His other bondservants (us) would have the whole truth and nothing but the truth with which to understand how salvation operates in their lives.

I cannot see how Paul in any way helped this process along; in fact his appearance confused the process such that today Christians believe the words and teachings of Paul as if they were in fact the very words of Jesus Christ Himself-and this is just not so.

Soon,

Our Lord said that we who are evil know how to give good gifts to our children.

He said that the world was condemned without him.

This is foundational to any agreement in Jesus Christ.

Joe

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