What You Despise The Most

The Bellman · Oct 14, 2004

All4one said:
Bellman, I must say that I am convicted for my actions. Some of the things I have said is out of the way. I do appologive, God has convicted me. Although I do know my view is true I must say that the way I present it and back it is less then appropriate. Now I will back myself on morality biblically and worldly.

Forget it. I'm more interested in actually discussing your views - as I've done below.

All4one said:
Biblically:
Luke 5:31- Jesus answered them," Healthy people don't need a doctor- sick people do."
When Jesus said this he was distuinguishing between right and wrong. He came to die for us while we were yet sinners.

This isn't really in the scope of the discussion on morality, I don't think. I disagree with your statement, but since it's not really at issue, I'll leave it.

All4one said:
Romans 5:8- But God showed His great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were yet sinners.
Now by thinking that faith is just an opinion we are saying that Christ is only who we think He is and not actually who He is. That is why I say that if we do not "stand for something (Christ) then we fall for everything. If we have no moral focus point then we never have a defined guideline to go by. When we think God is bound by whatever people think He is then we actually bind ourselves.

But faith IS just an opinion. You can have faith in Jesus, while others put faith elsewhere. That makes it opinion. Whether or not that opinion is correct is beside the point - it's still opinion.

The line "if we don't stand for something, then we fall for everything" is a nice one. However, it doesn't apply here. Nobody is suggesting that we don't stand for something. What is at issue, however, is what it is that we stand for. I imagine that you think what we have to stand for is Jesus, but that's not necessary to negate the idea that we fall for everything. For instance, if I say (hypothetically) that I will "stand" for kind treatment to all people, regardless of the fact that I am an atheist, then clearly I stand for something, and then won't "fall for everything." I know of nobody who thinks we should not "stand for something."

All4one said:
John 4:23- But the time is coming and is already here when true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for anyone who will worship Him that way.
I do not know if you have heard the elephant proverb before. There were six blind men who all came to an elephant. One felt of the belly and thought it was a wall, another a leg and thought it was a tree. Yet another felt of the tail and thought it was a whip and another the tusks and thought it was a spear. One of the last two grabbed the trunk and said it was a snake and another an ear and thought it was a leaf. What I am trying to imply here is that "what a person thinks" is not healthy unless it is the truth.

"What a person thinks" is not correct unless it is the truth; it may or may not be healthy. In general, though, I'd certainly agree that thinking that which is false is not a good thing. However, I don't see where this is really at issue.

All4one said:
John 14:6- (Jesus speaking) " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
The men feeling of the elephant all had their own ideas of what truth was but it was not that at all. It is only when they are trampled that they will find error.

No, they don't have to be trampled at all...the can find out their error by further investigation. For example, if they all change places, they'll all feel different bits of the elephant. If they change places again, they'll feel more of him, and so forth. Eventually, they'll all have felt all of him and be able to put together an accurate idea of what it actually is. The point I'm making here is that while believing falsehoods is not good, from falsehoods we can come to believe the truth.

All4one said:
John 16:13- When the spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting His own ideas; He will be telling you what He has heard. He will tell you about the future.
You may ask why I am speaking on truth so much when morality is the question at hand. Morality comes from truth. Morality is not what you believe but what is actually so. With no truth the US and no one for that matter has no true unity. Everyone runs their own race because everyone believes their own thing. The bible speaks of a time when everyone "follows what is right in their own eyes." I believe we are in much of that stage today.

I don't know what "morality comes from the truth" actually means. I would dispute that "morality is...what is actually so," because I don't believe there is any objective morality. Everyone follows what is right in their own eyes; that has always been the way, and will always be. The question is what is right in their own eyes.

All4one said:
When I say morality collapse I mean exactly that. More then ever the "church" cannot be trusted. That alone is a morality crises because the church for years has dispersed morality and distributed right from wrong. This is why I am angry with myself for pushing these things. It is because the church has not been doing its job that people are so confussed about our state. The greatest hinderance to Christs body today has been the Christian themselves. If 12 men (plus a few) changes the world then why can all that are Christians today not do even more? We all have acess to Gods store.

I don't believe the church has ever "dispersed morality and distribute right from wrong." Historically, the church has never been particularly moral.

All4one said:
Some say that we do not need morality to unify but if we do not then we have heated debates on abortion, capital punishment, animal rights, incest, jail, God, truth, marriage, and everything else of any importance at hand. If our presidents had the same motivations and morality then there would be no debate. All there is in this country is disagreement, yet many cannot see the collapse and reason for the split of "one mind and body."

I think you're overestimating the value of 'unity' in this context. Certainly, unity among a people is desirable, but not 'moral unity'. In other words, people can be unified while still disagreeing about the morality of various acts. Debate on these things isn't bad; it's healthy, and part of the process by which we determine the best morals for society as a whole. You beg the question saying that "many cannot see the collapse" - you haven't yet evidenced that there IS a collapse.

All4one said:
Earthly
Anyone open to suggestion knows the earthly effects. Since God is excluded people have no true understanding of what is right and wrong because without God there is no moral judge. I will provide an example. Since God says abortion is wrong but people do it anyways we miss the point. God says murder is wrong but what if someone walked into your best friends house and blew away their entire family with a gun? Then when you wanted justice the cops said, " well I don't see anything wrong with it." It is truly coming to this point. We think we have advanced but we are actually oppressed by satan. If people would "humble themselves and pray" God would heal this land.

Lots of assumptions here. Who says "God is excluded"? Who says "God says abortion is wrong" (a great many christians believe otherwise). Then you confuse morality with justice. It is not necessary to have a common perception of morality for us to have a common perception of justice. When the cop says "well I don't see anything wrong with it," the answer is simple - "it's against the law." We have advanced morally - your claiming that we are oppressed by Satan merely begs the question.

All4one said:
It may seem that we are talking about religious beliefs here but we are talking about any set of morals. If you say to a Christian that what they say is just "what they believe is right" then how do you know that what you accept to be true is really true? A christian has the backing of God but opinion has no backing. I may refer back to the murder scenario where a person murders your best friend and his/her family. Who is to say thats wronge? I bet the murderer don't think so. So because they believe that I guess that makes it their "rights" so we let them go? I tell you the truth that "rights" are the downfall of this nation. When we get "freedom" we are actually free to let satan take control in many ways. Everything goes is not freedom. When this nation says "freedom" it is only the freedom to be captive to something..... and choose what. I pray to God that you understand what I am saying.

Yes, we are talking about religious beliefs, and we are talking about sources for any set of morals. You seem to be 'down' on opinion, yet that is all ANY of us have. Christians tend to say that they derive their morals from god, yet many christians disagree as to the morality of various acts. They all have their own OPINION - and that opinion is that their morals reflect god's. Your opinion that (for example) god says abortion is wrong is just that - your OPINION. Others have the opinion that god doesn't say that. If, as you say, "opinion has no backing", then your opinion that god says abortion is wrong has no backing.

And again you confuse morality with legality. If a person murders my best friend, he may well say that he wasn't wrong to do so. I don't really care. What I do care about is that what he did was illegal, and he will be punished for it, regardless of whether or not he thinks it was morally wrong.

Your statement that "rights are the downfall of this nation" terrifies me. It is "rights" that enable us to discuss the issue, "rights" that prevent me from killing you with impunity, "rights" that prevent me from enslaving you.

Sorry, "everything goes" IS freedom. That's what freedom means. It includes the freedom to do what others find morally wrong. You think that those who have different moral opinions to you are "captive" to something - but that's just your OPINION (remember, no backing).

All4one said:
Without an ultimate judge and a regard for everything as just what a person "believes" we find a morality crisis. Bellman once again I am sorry for my sarcastic attitude. I must learn to understand that it is only by the grace of God that I see these things and some others do not. It is nothing of myself so I must refrain from thinking so. Please support your opinion here... I would love to see what you have to say from your standpoint and teaching.

Once again, you claim a morality crisis but without evidence.

All of the above is interesting, but I don't believe you've actually addressed the issue. You claim there is a moral crisis, and the reason for it is lack of god, but you still haven't evidenced this moral crisis. To be sure, the prevailing societal morality has changed significantly over the last hundred years - over the last fifty, twenty years. It's up to you to demonstrate that it has changed for the worse. You haven't.

Let's look at an approximation of what the prevailing societal morality was when America began (two hundred-odd years ago). Then, the following were held to be moral:
- it was right to subjugate, enslave and kill persons of other ethnic backgrounds.
- it was right to limit women to unequal rights and virtually no opportunities.
- it was right for children to work long hours.
- it was wrong to have extra- or pre-marital sex.
- it was wrong to have homosexual sex.
- it was wrong to have any religious belief other than christianity (or a vague sorth of deism).

Now, the prevailing morality is:
- it is wrong to subjugate, enslave and kill persons of other ethnic backgrounds.
- it is wrong to limit women to unequal rights and virtually no opportunities.
- it is wrong for children to work long hours.
- it is not wrong to have pre-marital sex.
- it is not wrong to have homosexual sex.
- it is not wrong to have any religious belief other than christianity (or a vague sorth of deism).

Obviously, these are brief encapsulations of the prevailing morality of the times. But to demonstrate that there's a "moral crisis", you hae to demonstrate that the prevailing morality now is much worse than it was then. You haven't done this, and I don't think you can.

All4one · Oct 14, 2004

No, they don't have to be trampled at all...the can find out their error by further investigation. For example, if they all change places, they'll all feel different bits of the elephant. If they change places again, they'll feel more of him, and so forth. Eventually, they'll all have felt all of him and be able to put together an accurate idea of what it actually is. The point I'm making here is that while believing falsehoods is not good, from falsehoods we can come to believe the truth.

Bellman, I will pray for you brother ina all love and respect to your standpoint. Just keep in mind that just because they CAN feel different parts of the elephant does not mean they will do so. How many have actually "FELT" God and given that aspect a chance?

Love Ya Bro,
All4one

All4one · Oct 14, 2004

Investigate God...

The Bellman · Oct 14, 2004

All4one said:
Bellman, I will pray for you brother ina all love and respect to your standpoint. Just keep in mind that just because they CAN feel different parts of the elephant does not mean they will do so. How many have actually "FELT" God and given that aspect a chance?

Love Ya Bro,
All4one

Oh...you fall back on prosletyzing, rather than supporting your claims? What a shame.

All4one · Oct 15, 2004

I have made my case and see it of no use to argue this any further. I have argued my claims.. Now I turn the mic. to you.... please explain your views.
I will still pray for you bro.

In Christ,
All4one

All4one · Oct 15, 2004

As my sig. says knowledge is the hinderance of truth. I can only say carry on with your claims.... better hope your right though because if your not..... I personally would not take that chance.

In Christ and continued prayer,
All4one

All4one · Oct 15, 2004

Oh...you fall back on prosletyzing, rather than supporting your claims? What a shame.

In all respect I ask that you support your claims on something other then opinion.

Once again, you claim a morality crisis but without evidence.

All of the above is interesting, but I don't believe you've actually addressed the issue. You claim there is a moral crisis, and the reason for it is lack of god, but you still haven't evidenced this moral crisis. To be sure, the prevailing societal morality has changed significantly over the last hundred years - over the last fifty, twenty years. It's up to you to demonstrate that it has changed for the worse. You haven't.

Let's look at an approximation of what the prevailing societal morality was when America began (two hundred-odd years ago). Then, the following were held to be moral:
- it was right to subjugate, enslave and kill persons of other ethnic backgrounds.
- it was right to limit women to unequal rights and virtually no opportunities.
- it was right for children to work long hours.
- it was wrong to have extra- or pre-marital sex.
- it was wrong to have homosexual sex.
- it was wrong to have any religious belief other than christianity (or a vague sorth of deism).

Now, the prevailing morality is:
- it is wrong to subjugate, enslave and kill persons of other ethnic backgrounds.
- it is wrong to limit women to unequal rights and virtually no opportunities.
- it is wrong for children to work long hours.
- it is not wrong to have pre-marital sex.
- it is not wrong to have homosexual sex.
- it is not wrong to have any religious belief other than christianity (or a vague sorth of deism).

Obviously, these are brief encapsulations of the prevailing morality of the times. But to demonstrate that there's a "moral crisis", you hae to demonstrate that the prevailing morality now is much worse than it was then. You haven't done this, and I don't think you can.

I already know all this and I would like to see how these things have improved our society rather then just let people have what they want.

In Christ,
All4one

All4one · Oct 15, 2004

You haven't done this, and I don't think you can.

Last post this time

Would you believe me if I could? I think the point has been made but you seem to still refuse it. What can I say to make you believe?

In Christs Love,
All4one

The Bellman · Oct 15, 2004

All4one said:
I have made my case and see it of no use to argue this any further. I have argued my claims.. Now I turn the mic. to you.... please explain your views.

No, you haven't argued your claims. You claim we are undergoing a "moral crisis", yet you haven't even mentioned anything about the prevailing societal moral values. All you have done is state that (in your opinion) we need to get those moral values from god. That says nothing at all about the moral values we currently have.

All4one said:
I will still pray for you bro.

And I'll paint myself and dance naked around my coffee table for you.

All4one said:
As my sig. says knowledge is the hinderance of truth. I can only say carry on with your claims.... better hope your right though because if your not..... I personally would not take that chance.

And your sig. is wrong. Knowledge is the possession of truth, not the hindrance of it. I will continue to take the position I currently do, particularly because you have given me nothing at all to refute that position, despite repeated requests (to you and others).

All4one said:
In all respect I ask that you support your claims on something other then opinion.

I haven't made any claims. I'm waiting for you to support yours.

All4one said:
I already know all this and I would like to see how these things have improved our society rather then just let people have what they want.

You don't think stopping enslaving African-Americans, stopping hunting native Americans like animals, stoping children from working 12 hours a day and so forth has improved our society?

All4one said:
Would you believe me if I could?

Of course I'd believe you if you could. I don't think you can, but if you could, I'd obviously believe it. However, you haven't even attempted to do so.

All4one said:
I think the point has been made but you seem to still refuse it. What can I say to make you believe?

No, the point hasn't been made. You have consistently avoided supporting your claims. To make me believe, you can actually support your claim by talking about the prevailing societal moral beliefs, rather than their origin. Whether those moral beliefs come from god or from elsewhere is irrelevant to what they are.

You claim that we are in a "moral crisis", yet you point to nothing at all to evidence this. More, you avoid the statements I've made about the prevailing moral beliefs today as compared to previously. If you can't support your claims, that's fine - I'll just take them as worthless. But please, don't claim to have done something (ie., supported your claims) that you haven't done.

seebs · Oct 15, 2004

All4one said:
As my sig. says knowledge is the hinderance of truth. I can only say carry on with your claims.... better hope your right though because if your not..... I personally would not take that chance.

You are taking that chance. Same as the rest of us.

If you're wrong, you could be in BIG trouble. Same as the rest of us.

Brimshack · Oct 15, 2004

"Knowledge is the hindrance of truth" ????

That's a rather convenient maxim if I have ever seen one. What a perfect excuse to ignore anything that doesn't seem to fit your own preconceptions. It is also an explicit attempt to cast ignorance as a virtue.

soulful · Oct 17, 2004

i despise the youth of today in that there potential is not reached because of there doubts and there low self esteem people of my age are so afraid to step out and change but the very few who do are happy have been there before and have changed ......the false hope that teenagers have in the world i despise...the youth have not found themsleves and are living what they think is right cool comforatable and easy .....people dont think they are strong enough i despise not them but the people who made them that way the way they are today the parents the teachers the world society media and everything that they have believed enough to listen to, these people have changed what was there for these people that have remouldedthem and compromised the ways of there prey......i despise.............

FadingWhispers3 · Oct 17, 2004

As my sig. says knowledge is the hinderance of truth.

I would say that if a little knowledge is a hinderance to truth, it can always be solved easily by more complete knowledge.

All4one · Oct 17, 2004

And your sig. is wrong. Knowledge is the possession of truth, not the hindrance of it.

You have knowledge but you do not have truth. All I see is a chain reaction here of strife. You only criticize my message and do not even attempt to understand it. So if I did tell you the truth you would only criticize it. My final post here is that I will pray for you Bellman, I will pray that you seek the truth and not reject it. I will pray that is pierces your heart. I will pray that you use understanding for God and not mere wisdom. Knowledge may be to say there is no God but to actually understand that there is no God cannot be understood. Have fun on your quest for what is right and I will provide intersession along the way.

In Christs Love,
All4one

All4one · Oct 17, 2004

Knowledge is only knowing something- that does not make it truth. In todays society so many people "know" things and accept it as truth... even those Knowing these things does not make them true so it is thus a hinderance.

Knowing Brings About Knowledge-
But UNDERSTANDING Brings About WISDOM-(truth)-

seebs · Oct 17, 2004

All4one said:
Knowledge is only knowing something- that does not make it truth. In todays society so many people "know" things and accept it as truth... even those Knowing these things does not make them true so it is thus a hinderance.

Knowing Brings About Knowledge-
But UNDERSTANDING Brings About WISDOM-(truth)-

If you have no knowledge, you have nothing to understand. Knowledge of some sort remains a prerequisite for understanding.

Mostly, though, this is just soundbites intended to be waved around like a thurible to make the Bad Facts go away.

The Bellman · Oct 17, 2004

All4one said:
You have knowledge but you do not have truth.

This is rubbish. Knowledge of something is possession of truth. If you know something, then you are aware of the truth about it. That's what knowledge means.

All4one said:
All I see is a chain reaction here of strife. You only criticize my message and do not even attempt to understand it. So if I did tell you the truth you would only criticize it.

This is simply false. I have discussed the matter with you courteously and repeatedly. There has been criticism - on both our parts - which is to be desired and is the aim of forums like this. To say that I "do not even attempt to understand it" is simply false, and it's something you can't claim to know. Similary with saying "if I did tell you the truth you would only criticize it." That's just a lie, and it's a weak attempt to evade having to support your claims.[/QUOTE]

All4one said:
My final post here is that I will pray for you Bellman, I will pray that you seek the truth and not reject it. I will pray that is pierces your heart. I will pray that you use understanding for God and not mere wisdom. Knowledge may be to say there is no God but to actually understand that there is no God cannot be understood. Have fun on your quest for what is right and I will provide intersession along the way.

You've said this several times, and it's a waste of space. I don't care if you pray for me. If it makes you feel good, go right ahead. But it accomplishes nothing in terms of our discussion. It's merely another way for you to avoid actually supporting your claims.

All4one said:
Knowledge is only knowing something- that does not make it truth. In todays society so many people "know" things and accept it as truth... even those Knowing these things does not make them true so it is thus a hinderance.Knowing Brings About Knowledge-
But UNDERSTANDING Brings About WISDOM-(truth)-

At this point I can only recommend a dictionary. If you know something, it is truth. That's what "know" means. You can't know something false.

"Wisdom" does not mean "truth".

All4one · Oct 18, 2004

Whatever floats your boat.

In Christs Love,
All4one

The Bellman · Oct 18, 2004

All4one said:
Whatever floats your boat.

In Christs Love,
All4one

Thus wimps out someone who knows he cannot support his ridiculous claims...

FadingWhispers3 · Oct 18, 2004

99% of communication difficulties with christians can be attributed to the fact that christians speak an alien language.

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