What Would Falsify the Flood? (2)

PsychoSarah · Feb 26, 2014

dad said:
Bingo. Millions died attesting it was true. Witnesses saw and knew and touched Jesus. It is last thursdayism to deny. Rome fell as did Greece and Medo Persia, and Babylon..on cue. Their successors were predicted. On cue. Israel was taken captive as predicted for as long as predicted...etc etc.

Problem, self-fulfilling prophecies. It isn't hard to realize that some of the most desirable places to take over, for both power and religious reasons, would eventually fall to other armies. Additionally, the best kind of prophecy is the one that you let fulfill itself before writing it down

On cue isn't precisely correct, more like the bible portions that mention them was after the fact, and there are historical events the bible gets wrong. A personal favorite of mine to mention is King Herod, who supposedly ordered the slaughter of innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus. Problem, we know approximately when Jesus was alive and when he died. The closest King Herod to being alive and in the area had died more than a decade prior to the earliest estimates to the birth of Jesus, and the next king of that name would not gain power until long after Jesus was dead.

dad · Feb 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Only one book of the bible has a decent chance of being the writings of someone who directly met Jesus,

No. The whole old testament is about Him! Many met Him there too!

one of the books has a bit of evidence that supports it being the ghost writings of one of the apostles.

There were 4 gospels and Paul who met Him also. There also were relatives and disciples and friends etc. If they are all inspired they all have a Holy Ghost chance of being right.

But, other than that, all the rest are just people who heard of those events long after Jesus was dead, and a few just happened to assume the names of the apostles or just happened to share their names.

Isaiah and the psalms and other books heard of Him before He was born here. Heard and saw Him too actually.

As it were, only 3 books of the bible were written close enough to the time of Jesus to have been written by someone who met Jesus.

False. When they were compiled does not mean they were written at that time.
We had records before they were put in a bigger book.

dad · Feb 26, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Problem, self-fulfilling prophecies. It isn't hard to realize that some of the most desirable places to take over, for both power and religious reasons, would eventually fall to other armies. Additionally, the best kind of prophecy is the one that you let fulfill itself before writing it down

False. One cannot have a baby born of a virgin just because one says it will be. Nor the HUNDREDS of other prophesies Jesus totally fulfilled. Impossible.

On cue isn't precisely correct, more like the bible portions that mention them was after the fact, and there are historical events the bible gets wrong.

False.

Hundreds of prophesies were fulfilled, and those living at that time were very aware of many of them.

A personal favorite of mine to mention is King Herod, who supposedly ordered the slaughter of innocents in an attempt to kill Jesus. Problem, we know approximately when Jesus was alive and when he died.

That's what you think. I challenge your dates.

PsychoSarah · Feb 26, 2014

dad said:
No. The whole old testament is about Him! Many met Him there too!
There were 4 gospels and Paul who met Him also. There also were relatives and disciples and friends etc. If they are all inspired they all have a Holy Ghost chance of being right.
Isaiah and the psalms and other books heard of Him before He was born here. Heard and saw Him too actually.
False. When they were compiled does not mean they were written at that time.
We had records before they were put in a bigger book.

Incorrect, the Old Testament may have prophecies later stated to have been fulfilled in the New Testament, but no mention of Jesus or details that validate any claim that Jesus is mentioned in the Old Testament exist.

While many people supposedly met Jesus, the majority would not have been literate, especially not the women. Therefore, even those disciples, friends, and probably a number of the apostles would not have been able to write anything directly themselves. Given the strong oral traditions of the time, it is not unlikely that most of them would have communicated their experiences by word of mouth, and eventually someone would think to write down what was supposedly said long after these individuals died. And if you have ever played the telephone game, you know how distorted messages can become, especially long ones, when they are passed around by word of mouth.

True, the books of the bible were compiled, however, we can tell how old each individual text is by a number of factors. Some of the books have their original or close to original copies documented in their original language, and we can tell the minimum of how old a text is by the earliest version of it remaining today to the earliest reference to it remaining to date. Churches, as it were, were the primary record keepers in many areas, and kept excellent documentation of scripture additions and origins, ironically preserving data that would later cast doubt on the authorship of the bible.

Loudmouth · Feb 26, 2014

dad said:
No. The whole old testament is about Him! Many met Him there too!

According to who? People writing down second hand accounts decades after the claimed events.

There were 4 gospels and Paul who met Him also.

None of the gospel writers ever claimed to have met Jesus, and neither did Paul.

Writing stories down in books does not suddenly make the stories true. You need evidence.

PsychoSarah · Feb 26, 2014

dad said:
False. One cannot have a baby born of a virgin just because one says it will be. Nor the HUNDREDS of other prophesies Jesus totally fulfilled. Impossible.
False.

Hundreds of prophesies were fulfilled, and those living at that time were very aware of many of them.
That's what you think. I challenge your dates.

You challenge the dates given by the bible itself? Because that is what is used, along with a small number of other events that correlate with the bible, to determine when Jesus was alive. Again, the bible is a huge resource in approximating when Jesus was alive.

None of the prophecies fulfilled in the bible were written prior to them being fulfilled unless they were extremely generic prophecies. Generic meaning that those predictions were so likely to come true that for them not to be fulfilled would be more shocking than them being fulfilled. It is about amazing as predicting that one day, I am going to die, and acting all amazed when it eventually happens. It would be far more astounding to predict I won't die and have that be fulfilled, because that is actually unlikely.

Most of the prophecies that "everyone" knew about were very generic and nonspecific, so much so that you could theoretically go back in time and easily fulfill them yourself.

CabVet · Feb 26, 2014

dad said:
Hundreds of prophesies were fulfilled, and those living at that time were very aware of many of them.

Yes, so many fulfilled prophecies that the people that are the actual descendents of Abraham, Noah and Moses (a.k.a. the actual people of God, a.k.a. the Jewish) don't accept think they have been fulfilled.

dad · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
Incorrect, the Old Testament may have prophecies later stated to have been fulfilled in the New Testament, but no mention of Jesus or details that validate any claim that Jesus is mentioned in the Old Testament exist.

Not true. Many call the OT a Him Book. All about Him. Jesus was called many names, and the savior was long prophesied.

While many people supposedly met Jesus, the majority would not have been literate, especially not the women.

Paul met Him and was so literate that they called him mad from learning too much. Jesus promised to bring things to the remembrance of His apostles so they would get it right for the record. He must have known they could do it.

The Scribes and Pharisees who believed secretly sure could read. I am not sure someone could be a tax collector unless they could read either. Mary cited Scripture in her prayers showing she was very very familiar with them, so she probably read. Luke, who compiled some records was a doctor. John obviously could write, because the angel told him to write the things he saw!

Therefore, even those disciples, friends, and probably a number of the apostles would not have been able to write anything directly themselves. Given the strong oral traditions of the time, it is not unlikely that most of them would have communicated their experiences by word of mouth, and eventually someone would think to write down what was supposedly said long after these individuals died. And if you have ever played the telephone game, you know how distorted messages can become, especially long ones, when they are passed around by word of mouth.

Now if any of the ones charged with remembering and writing a record could not write (speculation) they could have enlisted a scribe.

True, the books of the bible were compiled, however, we can tell how old each individual text is by a number of factors. Some of the books have their original or close to original copies documented in their original language, and we can tell the minimum of how old a text is by the earliest version of it remaining today to the earliest reference to it remaining to date. Churches, as it were, were the primary record keepers in many areas, and kept excellent documentation of scripture additions and origins, ironically preserving data that would later cast doubt on the authorship of the bible.

If Jesus died in 29 AD or whatever, and the writings date from a few decades after that, it is not an issue.

dad · Feb 27, 2014

CabVet said:
Yes, so many fulfilled prophecies that the people that are the actual descendents of Abraham, Noah and Moses (a.k.a. the actual people of God, a.k.a. the Jewish) don't accept think they have been fulfilled.

They will. That is prophesy too! Many do, many did. Being rejected by His Own people was a part of the thing.

dad · Feb 27, 2014

Loudmouth said:
According to who? People writing down second hand accounts decades after the claimed events.

Perhaps find a topic you know something about.

None of the gospel writers ever claimed to have met Jesus, and neither did Paul.

So John never met Jesus!!? Wow. Talk about off the mark.

dad · Feb 27, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
You challenge the dates given by the bible itself? Because that is what is used, along with a small number of other events that correlate with the bible, to determine when Jesus was alive. Again, the bible is a huge resource in approximating when Jesus was alive.

The date of Jesus' birth was...what then?

None of the prophecies fulfilled in the bible were written prior to them being fulfilled unless they were extremely generic prophecies.

Absurd.

Most of the prophecies that "everyone" knew about were very generic and nonspecific, so much so that you could theoretically go back in time and easily fulfill them yourself.

Rising from being dead, and being born of a virgin in a certain town, of a certain lineage, being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver that was to go to the potter's field, riding a donkey into Jerusalem as king, and having hands and feet pierced etc etc are specific. You were misinformed.

TLK Valentine · Feb 27, 2014

dad said:
Bingo. Millions died attesting it was true.

Remember, Christians -- it doesn't matter what you say or do, only that you died doing it.

PsychoSarah · Feb 27, 2014

dad said:
The date of Jesus' birth was...what then?

Absurd.

Rising from being dead, and being born of a virgin in a certain town, of a certain lineage, being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver that was to go to the potter's field, riding a donkey into Jerusalem as king, and having hands and feet pierced etc etc are specific. You were misinformed.

What is so absurd? I hate using Wikipedia, but I am feeling lazy and if you want you can double check the numbers: Jesus birthdate by the research of most scholars 4-6 AD Chronology of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is actually a much more narrow range than I thought. As fortune would have it, a few other well documented events occurred within the lifetime of Jesus and allow a pretty good approximation of his birth. I will have you know that this is the research of both secular and religious groups arriving to the same conclusion (rare event).

Come on, the biblical records easily could have been altered to match that prophecy more closely. How on earth were the biblical authors supposed to know how much Judas was paid? It's not the kind of information people usually bother to keep track of or tell people; chances are no one knows how much he was paid, so they just took a guess. Riding a donkey is not something special, and it is pretty clear that Jesus was never an actual king, so he might have just looked dignified while riding it.

Mary being a virgin is not provable. However, assuming that she was, there is an exceedingly rare phenomenon in which two eggs combine rather than one being fertilized by a sperm, and this forming a child. However, to be fair, this has never been observed in humans and were it to happen, the child would be female.

Jesus's lineage again can't be proven and is an easy claim to make.

True, Jesus's crucifixion according to the bible is a little off, but not so much so as to be impressive.

dad · Feb 28, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
Remember, Christians -- it doesn't matter what you say or do, only that you died doing it.

No Christian martyr died killing other people with him.

Loudmouth · Feb 28, 2014

dad said:
Perhaps find a topic you know something about.

I know about this topic.

So John never met Jesus!!? Wow. Talk about off the mark.

John the Gospel Writer? No.

TLK Valentine · Feb 28, 2014

dad said:
No Christian martyr died killing other people with him.

Killing is as irrelevant as any other act -- all that matters to you is that they die.

dad · Feb 28, 2014

PsychoSarah said:
What is so absurd? I hate using Wikipedia, but I am feeling lazy and if you want you can double check the numbers: Jesus birthdate by the research of most scholars 4-6 AD Chronology of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which is actually a much more narrow range than I thought. As fortune would have it, a few other well documented events occurred within the lifetime of Jesus and allow a pretty good approximation of his birth. I will have you know that this is the research of both secular and religious groups arriving to the same conclusion (rare event).

Yet it is not known. My own opinion is that Robert Anderson had it right.

Come on, the biblical records easily could have been altered to match that prophecy more closely.

Now you accuse God of being either dead or unable to assure He would do what He promised.

How on earth were the biblical authors supposed to know how much Judas was paid?

Many in the Sanhedrin were secret believers.

Mary being a virgin is not provable.

Matter of record, confirmed by holy men of God. The life of Christ verified it.

However, assuming that she was, there is an exceedingly rare phenomenon in which two eggs combine rather than one being fertilized by a sperm, and this forming a child. However, to be fair, this has never been observed in humans and were it to happen, the child would be female.

That is why it was a sign!

Jesus's lineage again can't be proven and is an easy claim to make.

The records were there in Jerusalem. The city and temple was destroyed. They knew.

True, Jesus's crucifixion according to the bible is a little off, but not so much so as to be impressive.

Maybe you never heard of Psalm 22?

dad · Feb 28, 2014

TLK Valentine said:
Killing is as irrelevant as any other act -- all that matters to you is that they die.

False. If you die refusing to deny your claims, that is of note.

dad · Feb 28, 2014

Loudmouth said:
I know about this topic.

Act like it.

John the Gospel Writer? No.

Yes. The apostle.

Loudmouth · Feb 28, 2014

dad said:
Act like it.

You first. Show me a single verse where it states that the writer of any of the Gospels was a first hand witness to anything in the Gospels.

Yes. The apostle.

No, the writer of the gospel never states that they met Jesus. Even more, the gospels were written by men, and we all know how you reject the writings of men.

What Would Falsify the Flood? (2)

Chaotic Neutral

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Question everything

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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