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I could do that but it is off topic for this thread.
God Bless
Jax
One of the problems with Jesus is the story of him isnt consistent. According to some he claimed he was Gods son; according to others he was a prophet who never made such claims. According to some he was crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later; according to others; he was taken directly to heaven by God.Again you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I have never said it can be verified. I do say that using the same tools as used for all other historical events a case can be made that it as possible/probable as any other ancient event.
Perhaps not. But the evidence for each can and should be tested by the same criteria.
Interesting. Tell that to an evolutionist, or physicist that falsifiability does not matter . You can not test the truth of any theory unless there is a way it could possibly be proven wrong. Christianity is the only faith that could, beyond a doubt, be proven wrong( falsified). The claim we make is as testable as any other ancient event, no other religion can say that.
We are not discussing claims at the moment. We are discussing evidence. Not at all the same thing.
God Bless
Jax
We were comparing the relative strength of the evidence for two historical events. One of which would be evidence for God interacting in history thereby proving his existence. The point being that evidence sufficient to establish one event should be sufficient to establish the other. One event is the resurrection which would be evidence for God. Which was the Topic. (By the way I have no doubt that Caesar did cross the Rubicon.)Actually, my continuing a discussion of Caesar at the Rubicon would be off topic for this thread.
..I'll say this though, despite the records being further removed from the event than the resurrection
. I believe that the authors of the Gospels were exactly who they claimed to be. Mathew, Mark, Luke and John two of whom were of the twelve Apostles, one( John Mark) was the scribe of Peter whose Gospel he wrote, and Luke who accompanied the apostle Paul and who used primary sources for his Gospel. And I believe that authorship has been established as well as the authorship of any ancient document. Again I want you to know that I am making a secular historical claim, not a faith based claim..those events were transcribed into a book and passed on. Your resurrection story, unfortunately, was passed by word of mouth for decades before being transcribed.
This is not a completely accurate statement but its not relevant since the Gospels were not derived from Oral tradition.Nolegitimate historian considers the two methods equally valid..
1. The Gospels do not rely on an Oral Tradition.one is horribly suspect, especially in light of its claims.
The arguments are dependent upon when you date the gospels and who the authors are. But since I believe an early date for the Gospels and the authorship as I have stated above I would offer this. Human Nature.The church exists only because of the resurrection otherwise you have to explain why the writers would make up a story that did not bring them any financial rewards, brought them a great deal suffering and one that they were all eventually died for (except for one). The simplest explanation is that they taught what they had actually seen and heard. Without the resurrection there would have been no gospels and without the gospels there is no churchSince you won't be giving an example, I'll just assume you have none.
Why do you say that? What did I say that you disagree with?Ken,
I'm nor sure you have a good grasp of modern biblical interpretation that includes consideration of genre, style, authorial purposes and immediate context. Without a sound underlying framework your position may differ little from a person, citing some inadequate research, concluding that the scientific method itself is faulty.
John
NZ
1.As Johnzz said need to get a better grasp concerning how to evaluate sources.One of the problems with Jesus is the story of him isnt consistent. According to some he claimed he was Gods son; according to others he was a prophet who never made such claims. According to some he was crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later; according to others; he was taken directly to heaven by God.
That would be valid only if you believed all those writings and claims about Caesar were equally valid and accurate. Textual Criticism is a highly developed science. There are ways to differentiate between sound and unsound text.The story of Julius Caesar (for example) is consistent. If some people claimed he was a Roman leader, and others claimed he was a Greek leader; or is some people claimed he died via Assassination while others claimed he died of old age; I would have my doubts about Julius Caesar as well.
Its absolutely not true.Another problem with the story of Jesus is because as the saying goes Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence Now I know you dislike that phrase but it is true!
I have no doubt that is true for you. But this about what the evidence supports, not what is easiest to believe. If the evidence for each event , using the same standard measurement, is equally good you must either deny both or accept both.It is much easier to believe a Roman Ruler conquered much of the world during the Roman Empire than to believe a religious leader preformed acts outside the laws of nature, and rose from the dead after being executed.
.Also weather the story of Caesar is true or false isnt going to have an effect on my life
And your afterlife.Weather the story of Jesus is true or false will have significant effect on my life.
I don't expect you to believe it. (Though I very much hope you do at some point before it is to late) I only hope to show you that there are no overwhelming intellectual reasons to reject it.If you expect me to believe something that is going to change my life
Truth does not depend in the degree of difficultyin a way I find more complicated;
Why?you need to bring more to the table than you would if you expect me to believe something that has no effect on my life at all other than what I might learn in a history class.
Not at all. You only have to believe that He rose from the dead.Also to believe the biblical story of Jesus you have to believe some of the old stories of the Old Testament that sounds unrealistic; like a man getting swallowed by a whale/fish and sits in the belly of this animal for 3 days without any air supply. Or the unrealistic story of Adam and Eve etc. to believe the bible story of Jesus you have to believe a lot of other stuff as well!
I understand you believe that. But other than some special pleading you have not supported your assertion.Believing Caesars story doesnt require this. That is why I find it unrealistic to expect the same criteria required to believe Caesar is all that is needed to believe the Bible story of Jesus.
Why do you say that? What did I say that you disagree with?
Ken
Scientific. I don't know what mathematical evidence would look like for anything, much less God.
Why exactly is God incommensurable in a scientific sense? Why can't we just scientifically test if prayers are answered more for Hindus, Muslims, Christians or atheists? That would be a really easy test to make.
Why exactly is God incommensurable in a scientific sense? Why can't we just scientifically test if prayers are answered more for Hindus, Muslims, Christians or atheists? That would be a really easy test to make.
For the same reason that there is no test for detecting the invisible fire breathing dragon that lives in my garage.
The Dragon In My Garage
For the same reason that there is no test for detecting the invisible fire breathing dragon that lives in my garage.
The Dragon In My Garage
Silly stuff. You can accurately measure someone's love for you? How happy you are? How genuine a person's sympathy is?
Since Freud we understand that we don't even know ourselves that accurately.
What about historical material? Or judicial proof? They can't be assessed by scientific method. Yet history is the basic matrix of Christian understanding.
John
NZ
Silly stuff. You can accurately measure someone's love for you? How happy you are? How genuine a person's sympathy is?
What about historical material? Or judicial proof? They can't be assessed by scientific method.
No, but I can accurately determine if something (or someone) exists. The thread is about God's existence, not his feelings.
Of course history can be assessed by the scientific method. And judicial proof. Both are, all the time.
Which means you don't understand the difference criteria. Fine. That settles something anyway.
John
NZ
Do you really think it is as difficult to show that a person exists as it is to show that a deity exists? If so, you should really rethink your conclusions.
Or maybe you do?
History cannot be duplicated - a basic factor in scientific investigation. Nor can a murder which is a one time event.
The scientific method is fine for its subject matter, the material 'stuff' of our universe. Try to court your loved one on that basis by proving your feelings objectively.
John
NZ
History cannot be duplicated - a basic factor in scientific investigation. Nor can a murder which is a one time event.
The scientific method is fine for its subject matter, the material 'stuff' of our universe. Try to court your loved one on that basis by proving your feelings objectively.
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