What to say to a non-believer

To be honest you should feel lucky he's willing to put up with the religious side of things. Personally for me I cringe when I get into a discussion with someone of a decent amount of faith. Ask yourself, is there a happy medium at all with this relationship. Can you co-exist or make a deal with each other "You can have your religion just keep it to yourself, and I will keep quiet about my views etc..." trust me you wont be able to convert someone who just doesn't believe. Belief is a personal thing and wont be easily budged.

If your gut feeling is This wont work, then that's probably the correct answer.

Wow. I feel like I could be reading about myself five months ago.

I'm not going to say it can't work, because it can, my Mr C became a Christian (before we properly started dating but after we had fallen in love).

But having been there, done that, and got the tshirt here are three rules I did/wish I had abided by:

1. GET OTHER FRIENDS AND FAMILY PRAYING FOR HIM. And also make yourself accountable to them....he may be respectful of your morals and beliefs but he does not hold the same

2. NO TOUCHING. Seriously, it opens a whole can of worms....and it is so tempting to just go ahead and marry him or sleep with him when you take your chemistry to the next level

3. Read up and challange him, tell him you respect his beliefs and standpoints but would be intellectually dishonest if you left your faith because it makes the most logical sense (this certainly got Mr C's attention). 5 books you will find helpful are:

1. New Evidence that Demands a Verdict
2. Mere Christianity
3. The Dawkins delusion
4. The case for Christ
5.The Bible

also two websites with great articles are answers in genesis and CARM.



If you choose to go ahead with this, be prepared for a lot of pain and a lot of biting your tounge when he still seems so stubborn. I wouldbe crying for 3 hours some nights for how lost he was, but I couldn't tell him this or he would feel pressured.





BTW PLEASE don't date him or commit to a realtionship with him until he becomes a christian. He may never accept Christ and a marraige would be harder than you could ever dream.

TeachMe said:

Read up and challange him, tell him you respect his beliefs and standpoints but would be intellectually dishonest if you left your faith because it makes the most logical sense (this certainly got Mr C's attention). 5 books you will find helpful are:

1. New Evidence that Demands a Verdict
2. Mere Christianity
3. The Dawkins delusion
4. The case for Christ
5.The Bible

also two websites with great articles are answers in genesis and CARM.



If you choose to go ahead with this, be prepared for a lot of pain and a lot of biting your tounge when he still seems so stubborn. I wouldbe crying for 3 hours some nights for how lost he was, but I couldn't tell him this or he would feel pressured.





BTW PLEASE don't date him or commit to a realtionship with him until he becomes a christian. He may never accept Christ and a marraige would be harder than you could ever dream.

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Uhh ok I'm going to step in here.

Just how ignorant must your religion be of other peoples idelology if you have to "make sure" he's a christian first before you fall for him!... what a joke, that statement is up there with inter-racial marraige being a problem in the past...it's bigotry and it's wrong.

If you enjoy each others company with NO ISSUES that will cause a rift in the relationship, then there should be no need to change a person because you have a problem with him.

Tell yourself this, if you could be together but he wanted to wait until you got the silly notion of a "God" out of your system how would you feel?
Now put the shoe on the other foot and you would pretty much get an understanding of what he would feel.

Personally if you think you have "converted" him I can almost certainly guarantee that he would be lying to himself of his "belief" in God only to keep peace with the relationship... what's better a lie that brings people together, or a truth that tears apart?

It's just a matter of two people not being compatible. Nobody's fault, really. It's unfortunate that you hadn't determined this before confessing to him that you liked him back, it's not going to be as smooth as it otherwise would have been. But it needs to be done. A lot of people think at first that religion won't become an issue, and the way it turns out, it becomes an issue. Better that you not get together in the first place than find that it is in fact an issue and dump him. If you follow your faith in the first place and don't date him, it will be a better witness to him. Having a foot in both worlds is not steady ground for you, and men usually prefer women who are steady in what they say and do.

Cosmicteapot said:

Uhh ok I'm going to step in here.

Just how ignorant must your religion be of other peoples idelology if you have to "make sure" he's a christian first before you fall for him!... what a joke, that statement is up there with inter-racial marraige being a problem in the past...it's bigotry and it's wrong.

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It's not bigotry to want a partner in life that commits to the same morals and ideals as you, who views the world through the same glasses you do especially when it comes to raising kids.

For instance, when talking to Mr C 5 months ago, I asked him would he be happy with me teaching the children about creation as being literal truth and evolution being wrong.

His resounding answer was a NO! As I would EXPECT. He genuinly believed christians to be misguided and foolish, having blind faith and would have been intellectually dishonest if he had backed down on this issue.

Now I would be intellectually dishonest if I agreed to teach my children something other than what I believed logically and rationally to be the truth.

Hence it was an issue for us.

I was not saying he was an awful person for not being a christian, indeed he was one of the most intelligent and kind men I knew/know. But our idealogical differences were such that we could never agree as parents or partners "in the grace of life"

If you enjoy each others company with NO ISSUES that will cause a rift in the relationship, then there should be no need to change a person because you have a problem with him.

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There may not be issues NOW but in the the future, there will be times where the two people will disagree and ONE of them will have to back down. Either the christian backs down and lives in a way not pleasing to God or the athiest backs down and resents the christian.

Tell yourself this, if you could be together but he wanted to wait until you got the silly notion of a "God" out of your system how would you feel?
Now put the shoe on the other foot and you would pretty much get an understanding of what he would feel.

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Been there, done that. When discussing a possibility of a relationship I remember Mr C and I having a conversation going like this:

Mr C: I really want to be with you and I think we could compromise...

Me: We could, but would you really want to live with someone who taught your kids that Jesus is the Only Way, the Truth and the Life?

Mr C: Well you could teach them that and I could teach them what I believed...

Me: So you are asking me to undermine your authority as a parent? I don't think so...


Mr C: Good point.

Me: Look there are three options 1. we compromise 2. I leave christianity and 3. you become a christian. No.1 we have decided is not feasable, No.2 I refuse to do and No.3 is something that you should not do unless you believe it is true, if you don't and become a christian just to please me, I won't be with you anyway.

Mr C: I WOULD NEVER CHANGE MY LIFE FOR ANYONE if I DID NOT believe it to be true...

Me: Ditto. So... we are agreed that friends is all we can be?

Mr C: Yeah....

__

We were at an impasse. We both acknowledged that, as neither of us was willing to back down.

Personally if you think you have "converted" him I can almost certainly guarantee that he would be lying to himself of his "belief" in God only to keep peace with the relationship... what's better a lie that brings people together, or a truth that tears apart?

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I had to laugh at this.

I would never PRESUME to think I could convert anyone! Only God can convict. I told Mr C this right from the start that I would not even talk about God unless he bought it up. He did. He asked me how I could rationally believe in such fairytales since i seemed like such a "logical and grounded" person. I told him I had my reasons. . .if he was truly interested I could tell him but I wanted to make it clear that I was not trying to make him a christian, that it was a massive lifestyle change and should never be done expect in genuine conviction and conversion that results from the work of the Holy Spirit.

He asked me what I meant when I said the Holy Spirit (being a materialist at the time) enter five months of debate, discussion and reading....

One night he called me and asked how to be saved. I told him. He then proceeded to give his life to Christ. He has told his friends from his university days who as a result have almost disowned him. He has told his parents, his mother still will not believe him. He attends church and goes and sees the pastor every week for discussion. He regularly tells me about the peace he feels and what he talks about on his visits with the pastor each week. He prays through the day. He has stopped drinking and swearing. The depression he suffered from is gone. He is even more kinder, considerate, unselfish, loving. He is going to move to my hometown expressely to meet my parents so that they can get to know him before he asks for my hand in marraige as he realizes it could appear to them that he has converted for me, and he wants to demonstrate as much as possible that this is not true and his faith is genuine. NONE OF THIS I HAVE SUGGESTED.


I love him, yes, and I did deeply desire him to know Jesus, but I would never have tried to guilt it into him or bribe him with my love. His mind and will is his own and I respect that.


But I will call his attention to your post, so that he can tell you this himself.

Before this turns into back-and-forth bickering (which it shall mostly likely in a matter of a few posts)... All I have to say is this...


You're not even dating yet and you are already worried about marriage (although I must say kudos for acknowledging the potential for marriage). Relax!

-Do not "challenge him" as another poster suggested because that will only anger him, infuriate him, alienate him and kill your relationship. Doing that will show that you are more a militant than anything.

-Count your blessings. At least he would support any future kids being raised as Christians. That said, maybe he one day will "see the light" (I like to call this "conversion by osmosis", but that's just me). This one bit here has been what has caused many relationships to die before they began. The mere fact that he has already said that he would not oppose a Christian wedding or oppose future kids being raised Christian is half the battle. The other half is actually raising kids! or so I've heard

-The most important things are to not be imposing, to be compassionate, to be understanding, to communicate and all that other 1 Corinthians stuff that Paul wrote about.

The "rule" I live by when it comes to non-Christians is this: If asked a question than answer, but until then shut up. I was a staunch Atheist at one point in time and the one thing that pushed me further and further away from Christianity that Christians do is getting in a non-Christian's face and "challenging" them. Just be the best Christian you can be, pray for him and IF the relationship becomes serious than worry and have the heart attacks over it.

1. New Evidence that Demands a Verdict
2. Mere Christianity
3. The Dawkins delusion
4. The case for Christ
5.The Bible

also two websites with great articles are answers in genesis and CARM.

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I'm somewhat shocked that the Bible is at the BOTTOM of this list. But regardless, while Mere Christianity is an okay book for basic apologetics and CARM is decent, and I haven't read the Dawkins Delusion, I'd stay away from the others (esp AIG). Their arguments are laughable and sometimes plain old wrong, and could rather serve to turn someone even further away from Christianity if they think they have to become ignorant to accept it.

Count your blessings. At least he would support any future kids being raised as Christians.

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...for now...What guarantee that, in the future, he doesn't start to resent the fact that the children are being raised in a faith he finds wrong?

A friend of mine is a Christian woman who is married to a non-believer. Recent events have turned him from a simple non-believer to staunchly Anti-Christian. He has FORBIDDEN her from taking their 2 young sons to church, to show them any Christian children's DVDs (even VeggieTales), and contantly tells them how wrong she is...how it's all a myth. The older boy had accepted Jesus into his heart before his father's turnaround, and is hurt and torn by his father's reaction (the younger son is only about 3 or 4).

I also remember reading a true story ("With Love, From Karen" by Marie Killilea). Gloria was Karen's adopted sister. She was dating a wonderful man named Russ. The Killileas were (are) a Catholic family, and eventually Gloria chose to be baptized. Russ "humored" her, but remained...I guess the best way to put it is "religion-neutral". They realized that they were heading towards marriage, and Gloria went away to think and pray about it. When she came home, she told him that his denial of Christ would be a big stumbling block in their relationship...and broke it off. They both went their merry ways for a few years; Gloria even attended Russ' wedding. Soon after that he started studying, and divorced his wife (if memory serves, it was based on "nonconsummation") and was soon baptized himself. (There's a long story following the difficulties it took for them to GET married, but in the end, they did.)

Singermom said:

...for now...What guarantee that, in the future, he doesn't start to resent the fact that the children are being raised in a faith he finds wrong?

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Trusting in God. And communication. If they communicate well than it shall be addressed sooner rather than when it is too late.

Either way, the fact still remains that they are not dating. That in mind I think we're all being premature in talking about marriage and kids that have yet to exist.


And besides, how many healthy marriages between non-Christians and Christians get overshadowed, ignored and brushed aside but the few screwed up ones?

E.C. said:

And besides, how many healthy marriages between non-Christians and Christians get overshadowed, ignored and brushed aside but the few screwed up ones?

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What makes you think that "many" interfaith marriages between Christians and non-Christians go well, and the relationships which are unhealthy are "few"? And in the "healthy" relationships, how many of those Christians are practicing, with children who are practicing? Remember what the Lord said in Matthew 10:34-36.

If both people in the couple are Christian though, there's a good chance of avoiding that, assuming the children accept the Lord. And there will be a better chance of that happening with two Christian parents, since you don't have one kid identifying more with the faithless parent.

Sketcher said:

What makes you think that "many" interfaith marriages between Christians and non-Christians go well, and the relationships which are unhealthy are "few"? And in the "healthy" relationships, how many of those Christians are practicing, with children who are practicing? Remember what the Lord said in Matthew 10:34-36.

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I personally know of at least ten couples that are interfaith whom have kept their marriage healthy for many many years even with children. In fact, seven of the ten resulted in one joining the church of their spouse. Two of the ten resulted in atheists becoming Christians. Only one of the ten I know has resulted in divorce.


Either way, none of this negates the fact that children still have free will which means they are more than free to reject God later on all on their own without the help of an atheist parent.

Surely there's a Christian man you could find. Remember to keep on praying.

Just leave him be.

I would not advise getting into a relationship with him. If you are serious about your faith and it is a big part of you, and you are actually living a Christian lifestyle and not just believing Christian beliefs, then just do both of you a favor and keep things at friendship level.

It may seem ok now, but as things progress, it might not be. He may realize that he doesn't want to live the kind of lifestyle you want to because of your faith. When kids come into the picture, maybe he will be ok with raising them Christian, but you can't expect him to lie to them when they get older and start asking why Daddy doesn't go to Church. Are you ok with raising your children to believe that Daddy is going to hell because he won't accept Jesus? Its unfair to ask him to pretend to be something he is not for the rest of his life.

Believe me, it will just cause more problems in the long run.

Singermom said:

...for now...What guarantee that, in the future, he doesn't start to resent the fact that the children are being raised in a faith he finds wrong?

A friend of mine is a Christian woman who is married to a non-believer. Recent events have turned him from a simple non-believer to staunchly Anti-Christian. He has FORBIDDEN her from taking their 2 young sons to church, to show them any Christian children's DVDs (even VeggieTales), and contantly tells them how wrong she is...how it's all a myth. The older boy had accepted Jesus into his heart before his father's turnaround, and is hurt and torn by his father's reaction (the younger son is only about 3 or 4).

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I personally think that a child should be allowed to be a child and not be indoctrinated into his or her parents faith, this is a 3 to 4 year old child! how can you seriously think they understand the concept of religious teaching and the beginning of the universe!
And what about the consequences of hell at that age? It should be considered a form of mental abuse to tell a child that "if you dont believe what I believe then you will burn forever"

There are no Christian children, Muslim children or Jewish children... they are the children of Christian, Muslim or Jewish parents.

Let them stay kids and keep your idealology out of it until they decide for themselves what they choose to believe.

Cosmicteapot said:

I personally think that a child should be allowed to be a child and not be indoctrinated into his or her parents faith, this is a 3 to 4 year old child! how can you seriously think they understand the concept of religious teaching and the beginning of the universe!
And what about the consequences of hell at that age? It should be considered a form of mental abuse to tell a child that "if you dont believe what I believe then you will burn forever"

There are no Christian children, Muslim children or Jewish children... they are the children of Christian, Muslim or Jewish parents.

Let them stay kids and keep your idealology out of it until they decide for themselves what they choose to believe.

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So, you're saying that it's wrong for my friend to take her boys to church - especially when the older child has SHOWN an active interest - but it's OK for the father to tell them that it's all a myth?

He's basically saying 'force the atheistic religion on them'.

Vico said:

He's basically saying 'force the atheistic religion on them'.

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Atheistic Religion... wow

You must be truly mis-informed about Atheism if that's your response.

Atheism is just that we deny the existence of God or gods.

This is no different to denying that your horoscope can predict your day.

Atheism isn't a religion, we dont follow a set of scriptures, we dont get together every week and we dont force our idealology onto others with the threat of burning for eternity.

All atheists adhere to is that there is a lack of scientific evidence to prove the existence of a creator.

Singermom said:

So, you're saying that it's wrong for my friend to take her boys to church - especially when the older child has SHOWN an active interest - but it's OK for the father to tell them that it's all a myth?

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I said in my last post that it's wrong to force your idealology onto the children, atheism included.

Leave the kids to be kids and let them make the decision on their own, without any influence from the parents set of beliefs.

A child is genetically pre-programmed to accumulate knowledge from figures of authority.

For purposes of the "survival of the fittest" explanation, the brain is set up in such a way so that it believes what it is told by it's elders, because there just isn't time to experiment with warnings like "Don't go to near the cliff edge" or "Dont run across a busy highway" if there were any children who applied a questioning attitude to those teachings they would be dead.

The child brain will automatically believe what it is told, even if what it is told is nonsense. Then when that child grows up it will pass that same nonsense onto its children.
This is why the "santa claus and easter bunny" stories make kids so excited because they truly believe that they exist (and why wouldn't they when the proof is chocolates and presents) they dont question that the chocolates and presents may have been placed there by another means, because their brains aren't developed enough to question it, they just automatically believe the stories because that's what their elders and peers told them.

That is the scientific reason behind religious indoctrination and how the teaching of religious dogma acts like a virus and spreads down through the generations. You can do the same with Atheism, I can tell my child that I dont believe in a God, and that there is a lack of evidence for his existence and that may affect his grasp of learning about religion in the future.

When it comes to questions in the world which aren't possible to answer with a yes or no, let the child come to their own conclusions.

Vico said:

He's basically saying 'force the atheistic religion on them'.

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What a subtle and nuanced understanding of Cosmicteapot's position! I can't understand how christendom endured a 1000 year dark age with bright young men like you in it.