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SLStrohkirch said:good question Flipper. Bible has the Word of God in it, but so does Liturgy in that is uses the word of God within it. but I would put the word above liturgy in the sense that it can stand on it's own. The liturgy without the word can not stand alone.
The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration.SLStrohkirch said:good question Flipper. Bible has the Word of God in it, but so does Liturgy in that is uses the word of God within it. but I would put the word above liturgy in the sense that it can stand on it's own. The liturgy without the word can not stand alone.
Catigorical fallacy. Scripture was written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, it has God for it's author. Without the Word there is no Bible to stand or fall.Lotar said:Scott,
Could the Bible without the Word of God stand alone?
O most holy Theotokos, save us.
theologia crucis said:This is a categorical fallacy (erroneous and wrong) as well:
That is outright scary. And I write this in all seriousness...O most holy Theotokos, save us.
SAVE us?! She can't! And she doesn't!
Lotar said:It's in my sig
Real strange for someone who calls himself preacher to make fun of the sermon.Qoheleth said:What, more time for the pastor to show his qualities??
Mindless chanting, is this like mindless "praise music"?
This all sounds very anti-Lutheran, as we are a very Liturgical church.
Well, what else of our Lutheran faith and practice can we toss to the curb?
Q
BN said:Now preacher gets all bent out of shape at that because he seems to think everyone should have a mass. I don't want to misstate your position Q so if you want to condemn the mass speak up and I will apologize, but you've defended the mass before so I believe that is your real "problem" with my post. Noone would mistake our service for a mass, how about yours?
BigNorsk said:Noone would mistake our service for a mass, how about yours?
[Article I: Christ and Faith]
The first and chief article is this, That Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins, and was raised again for our justification, Rom. 4, 25. And He alone is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world, John 1, 29; and God has laid upon Him the iniquities of us all, Is. 53, 6. Likewise: All have sinned and are justified without merit [freely, and without their own works or merits] by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood, Rom. 3, 23 f. Now, since it is necessary to believe this, and it cannot be otherwise acquired or apprehended by any work, law, or merit, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us as St. Paul says, Rom. 3, 28: For we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law. Likewise v. 26: That He might be just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Christ.
Of this article nothing can be yielded or surrendered [nor can anything be granted or permitted contrary to the same], even though heaven and earth, and whatever will not abide, should sink to ruin. For there is none other name under heaven, given among men whereby we must be saved, says Peter, Acts 4, 12. And with His stripes we are healed, Is. 53, 5. And upon this article all things depend which we teach and practice in opposition to the Pope, the devil, and the [whole] world. Therefore, we must be sure concerning this doctrine, and not doubt; for otherwise all is lost, and the Pope and devil and all things gain the victory and suit over us.
Article II: Of the Mass.
That the Mass in the Papacy must be the greatest and most horrible abomination, as it directly and powerfully conflicts with this chief article, and yet above and before all other popish idolatries it has been the chief and most specious. For it has been held that this sacrifice or work of the Mass, even though it be rendered by a wicked [and abandoned] scoundrel, frees men from sins, both in this life and also in purgatory, while only the Lamb of God shall and must do this, as has been said above. Of this article nothing is to be surrendered or conceded, because the first article does not allow it. If, perchance, there were reasonable Papists we might speak moderately and in a friendly way, thus: first, why they so rigidly uphold the Mass. res, For it is but a pure invention of men, and has not been commanded by God; and every invention of man we may [safely] discard, as Christ declaMatt. 15, 9: In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Secondly. It is an unnecessary thing, which can be omitted without sin and danger.
Thirdly. The Sacrament can be received in a better and more blessed way [more acceptable to God], (yea, the only blessed way), according to the institution of Christ. Why, then, do they drive the world to woe and [extreme] misery on account of a fictitious, unnecessary matter, which can be well obtained in another and more blessed way?
Let [care be taken that] it be publicly preached to the people that the Mass as men's twaddle [commentitious affair or human figment] can be omitted without sin, and that no one will be condemned who does not observe it, but that he can be saved in a better way without the Mass. I wager [Thus it will come to pass] that the Mass will then collapse of itself, not only among the insane [rude] common people, but also among all pious, Christian, reasonable, God-fearing hearts; and that the more, when they would hear that the Mass is a [very] dangerous thing, fabricated and invented without the will and Word of God.
Fourthly. Since such innumerable and unspeakable abuses have arisen in the whole world from the buying and selling of masses, the Mass should by right be relinquished, if for no other purpose than to prevent abuses, even though in itself it had something advantageous and good. How much more ought we to relinquish it, so as to prevent [escape] forever these horrible abuses, since it is altogether unnecessary, useless, and dangerous, and we can obtain everything by a more necessary, profitable, and certain way without the Mass.
Fifthly. But since the Mass is nothing else and can be nothing else (as the Canon and all books declare), than a work of men (even of wicked scoundrels), by which one attempts to reconcile himself and others to God, and to obtain and merit the remission of sins and grace (for thus the Mass is observed when it is observed at the very best; otherwise what purpose would it serve ?), for this very reason it must and should [certainly] be condemned and rejected. For this directly conflicts with the chief article, which says that it is not a wicked or a godly hireling of the Mass with his own work, but the Lamb of God and the Son of God, that taketh away our sins.
But if any one should advance the pretext that as an act of devotion he wishes to administer the Sacrament, or Communion, to himself, he is not in earnest [he would commit a great mistake, and would not be speaking seriously and sincerely]. For if he wishes to commune in sincerity, the surest and best way for him is in the Sacrament administered according to Christ's institution. But that one administer communion to himself is a human notion, uncertain, unnecessary, yea, even prohibited. And he does not know what he is doing, because without the Word of God he obeys a false human opinion and invention. So, too, it is not right (even though the matter were otherwise correct) for one to use the common Sacrament of [belonging to] the Church according to his own private devotion, and without God s Word and apart from the communion of the Church to trifle therewith.
This article concerning the Mass will be the whole business of the Council. [The Council will perspire most over, and be occupied with this article concerning the Mass.] For if it were [although it would be] possible for them to concede to us all the other articles, yet they could not concede this. As Campegius said at Augsburg that he would be torn to pieces before he would relinquish the Mass, so, by the help of God, I, too, would suffer myself to be reduced to ashes before I would allow a hireling of the Mass, be he good or bad, to be made equal to Christ Jesus, my Lord and Savior, or to be exalted above Him. Thus we are and remain eternally separated and opposed to one another. They feel well enough that when the Mass falls, the Papacy lies in ruins. Before they will permit this to occur, they will put us all to death if they can.
In addition to all this, this dragon's tail, [I mean] the Mass, has begotten a numerous vermin-brood of manifold idolatries.
In short, the Mass itself and anything that proceeds from it, and anything that is attached to it, we cannot tolerate, but must condemn, in order that we may retain the holy Sacrament pure and certain, according to the institution of Christ, employed and received through faith.
BN said:Article II: Of the Mass.
That the Mass in the Papacy must be the greatest and most horrible abomination, as it directly and powerfully conflicts with this chief article
BN said:The fundamental differences are that the Mass has a priest, a class of person different from the congregants, who has the power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus at the altar. Included in the Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus, a denial of the sufficiency of the cross.
The congregants receive grace by attendance and by partaking of the Eucharist.
BN said:Every time a Mass is performed a sacrifice is performed as well. Now some Lutherans would say no such thing occurs in their Mass, but then why call it by a name guaranteed to confuse others.
BN said:It is my contention that a Lutheran service should be clearly different from a Catholic Mass in order that seekers coming in would not be confused that they are the same.
It is my contention that many a potential parishoner has been deprived when they attended a Lutheran worship service and went away saying it is nothing other than a Catholic Mass. Has anyone here ever heard anyone say such a thing?
BN said:That doesn't mean that he called to abolish liturgy, but he and other early Lutherans clearly abolished the Mass.
BigNorsk said:We are catholic, much more catholic than the LCMS is,
for you see we actively recognize that there are true christians in synods and denominations other than our own. We even do recognize that there are true christians in the Roman Catholic church.
We commune with any adult believer, Christ decides who is christian, not us. Explain to me what could be more catholic than that.
Now many think that Roman Catholism is the rituals and pagentry, but that isn't the place of error, that isn't the foundation. The Roman Catholics place the church and the priest over God himself. The priest changes the wine and bread into the body and blood, the priest sacrifices Jesus again for the remission of sins. The church decides what is right and wrong, not the Word of God. Even while recognizing the Word, they explain that the congregants can't possibly understand it, only they the higher more holy people can tell the true meaning. The Roman Catholic church puts themselves over God.
Why must we be careful? Well Q presents the perfect example, so in love with the ritual, the pagentry, that he has crossed over. He is not catholic for he condemns anyone not exactly like himself, but he has become fundamentally Roman Catholic, not Lutheran. Notice how he claims the worship service is indeed a Mass, a sacrifice of Jesus. Put your faith in the Mass, put your faith in the Eucharist, put your faith in the priest. Call the Pope and your pastor your father, for your faith comes from them not from Jesus.
It is not Romanphobia to speak out against such things. That word is just used to try and win a debate without any actual debate. If they want everything just like Rome, then at least be honest and become a Roman Catholic in word as well as deed.
Q makes an interesting point about the number of Sacraments, but to understand it we must look at what bestows grace in the Sacrament. Does the ritual bestow grace or does receiving the Word of God in faith? It is the Word of God that is important, not the ritual. Any way we receive God's Word in faith gives us grace, but Q wants to reduce each way to a ritual and another Sacrament. Must we take away all Lutheran freedom in order to do things properly? I say no.
To say that orthodox Lutheranism must include all the rituals of Rome is not orthodoxy at all. Orthodox Lutheranism recognizes that the rituals are not important that there is freedom in how to worship God as long as it is done orderly and the focus is on God and his Word. To claim a low church style is wrong, that a high church style is the only way, is wrong. It is wrong for the reason that it would again put us in charge, but we aren't in charge, God is. To require rituals be performed a certain way in order to be correct, rituals which aren't spelled out in the Bible, denies the sufficiency of Scripture. Orthodox Lutheranism rests solidly on the sufficiency of Scripture.
Marv
BN said:Now many think that Roman Catholism is the rituals and pagentry, but that isn't the place of error, that isn't the foundation. The Roman Catholics place the church and the priest over God himself.
BN said:The Roman Catholic church puts themselves over God.
BN said:Well Q presents the perfect example, so in love with the ritual, the pagentry, that he has crossed over. He is not catholic for he condemns anyone not exactly like himself, but he has become fundamentally Roman Catholic, not Lutheran.
BN said:Notice how he claims the worship service is indeed a Mass, a sacrifice of Jesus.
BN said:Put your faith in the Mass, put your faith in the Eucharist, put your faith in the priest.
BN said:It is not Romanphobia to speak out against such things. That word is just used to try and win a debate without any actual debate. If they want everything just like Rome, then at least be honest and become a Roman Catholic in word as well as deed.
BN said:Q makes an interesting point about the number of Sacraments, but to understand it we must look at what bestows grace in the Sacrament. Does the ritual bestow grace or does receiving the Word of God in faith? It is the Word of God that is important, not the ritual. Any way we receive God's Word in faith gives us grace,
BN said:but Q wants to reduce each way to a ritual and another Sacrament. Must we take away all Lutheran freedom in order to do things properly? I say no.
BN said:To say that orthodox Lutheranism must include all the rituals of Rome is not orthodoxy at all.
BN said:To claim a low church style is wrong, that a high church style is the only way, is wrong.
BN said:Orthodox Lutheranism rests solidly on the sufficiency of Scripture.
Rod said:I myself, don't understand this apparent need of some people to be accepted by the RC church. Why would they want their services to mistaken as RC??? Why the need for deception??
Rod said:I was also struck by the Romaphobia accusation. Such a politically correct way of attacking anothers viewpoint
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