What or Who Is Satan?

kellyc said:

oops, double post. when did adam fall from heaven? lucifer means falling star i thought. so why do you think satan and lucifer are two different things?

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What is heaven?

There is no substance in the Bible to show they are one of the same; in fact what I have quoted using scripture declares that Satan's beginning's were a murderer, a liar; not an angel. Answer my question; are you saying Satan has two beginnings?

do you believe in heaven? or an afterlife?

do you believe in heaven? or an afterlife?

Luke 10:18-20 NIV

18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Come on, it is not that difficult to know what Christ is talking about when He says Heaven. The Kingdom of God where He dwells, that is where the devil fell from and was cast down from. Adam's fall was from grace, not from Heaven. He became spiritually dead when he sinned against God, but he was here when that happened, not in Heaven. We're also told that the devil is clearly an angel.

2 Corinthians 11:14 NIV

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Benoni said:

What is heaven?

There is no substance in the Bible to show they are one of the same; in fact what I have quoted using scripture declares that Satan's beginning's were a murderer, a liar; not an angel. Answer my question; are you saying Satan has two beginnings?

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17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

So the "dragon" in Revelation is Satan, "The" Devil, the leader of the fallen angels.


Ok now watch this.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


So we see that Satan, "The Devil" and "Dragon" all refer specificly to a single evil spirit being. Then this being, and his imps and false preachers are also described as "Angels of light". That is, they come to you appearing to be serving God.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


What is the literal translation of the name "lucifer"?

It really comes to "brightness" or "Light bringer,"

So, the very name "lucifer" is totally agreeing with the "angel of light" descripton given by Paul regarding the devil.


Also, fallen angels are clearly seen in the Bible.

Revelation 12:4
And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

In the greek, the same word "stars" is translated as either "angel(s)" or "stars" depending on the translators preference.

For example, the wise men from the east saw a "star" in bethlehem. Now we know that "stars" do not "stand over a place," but move according to the time of night. So then within reason, we know that this "star" was actually an angel.

Similarly, the "stars" cast down by the dragon are "angels" who rebelled against God.


The "Devil" who is Satan, is literally the evil brother of Michael and Gabriel. The angels were all created at the same time, and the Bible says that God saw everything that he had made, and "behold it was very good".

Then AFTER they were all made "very good," Satan and 1/3 of the other angels chose to rebel against God by free will.

Even though the name "lucifer" only appears one time in the Bible, we know this is the same being "satan".

Isaiah 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

At the end of the present age, The devil is cast into the bottomless pit for a thousand years, and ultimately he is cast into the lake of fire.

SoundCard said:

Luke 10:18-20 NIV

18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Come on, it is not that difficult to know what Christ is talking about when He says Heaven. The Kingdom of God where He dwells, that is where the devil fell from and was cast down from. Adam's fall was from grace, not from Heaven. He became spiritually dead when he sinned against God, but he was here when that happened, not in Heaven. We're also told that the devil is clearly an angel.

2 Corinthians 11:14 NIV

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

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Where is heaven?

Benoni said:

Where is heaven?

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I already explained the word angel is not a Greek or Hebrew word, it simply means messenger. We are talking about Satan's origin; if God created him as a liar and a murderer from his beginning then how can he be an archangel in his beginning; how many beginnings does Satan have. One.

tanzel said:

Thats what I'm saying, Lucifer is Satan.
Lucifer is or use, to be the Light bringer.
Satan is the name use because of inquity, but when he was a son of
God, he was call Lucifer....

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. (Job 1:6,7)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12)

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luke 10:18)

Now, we see that satan came around the sons of God, but satan is not
consider a son of God any more, we see satan real name, of course. when he was son of the morning or the morning stars.....lets take a look at that

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (JOb 38:7)

Now, lets look at the similarly, the morning stars, who satan use to be a part of, and all the sons of God. Verses, Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. and, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning and, And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So we see have the scriptures all tie in together.

peace in Jesus name

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I disagree they do not all tie together, you seem to be totally ignoring what the Bible is saying about Satan's beginning and linking Lucifer to Satan where there is no link. Christ is the light bringer, Satan was always a murderer and liar; you cannot not have to different beginning; that is how God created Satan as a liar and murderer, Satan and Lucifer are not the same. Satan was never a son of God, Adam was a son of God, Jesus was a son of God, we are son's of God. God created Satan as the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Murderer, liar, waster all true.

Rev 22:16 I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thing sin the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

The word Lucifer in the Strong's Concordance says it is a title applied to the king of Babylon. The word itself means the morning star. The word MAN means a mortal, an individual, a male person. I could rest my case on just that one verse alone, but why would Peter under the direction of the Holy Spirit compare Jesus as the Day star with Lucifer the Devil?

It is the erroneous translation of the KJ that infers such.
Lucifer was never an Arc Angel, he was a MAN. (Satan is a spirit.)


Orthodoxy had long taught that Satan was, in the beginning, a high and beautiful archangel in heaven. The theologians and preachers recite over and over how Satan was originally "the anointed cherub that covers ... the most beautiful and wise of all God's creation!" I have never seen where some one has declared as they did in this FORUM that Satan sinned from the beginning when he was a so called angel. This being was, so they say, the ruler and leader of the angelic beings and apparently led them in their praise of God and shouts of joy ...the greatest being God ever created, one who had unequaled strength, wisdom, beauty, privilege, and authority, and was next to God Himself. This blameless, perfect one, named Lucifer, was created without any form of evil and with the greatest intelligence of any created being. Then, we are told, this Lucifer, suddenly realizing how beautiful and intelligent he was, became inflated with power and pride and his heart was lifted up in rebellion against God. According to the story, Lucifer gathered one-third of the heavenly angels to his cause, mustering an army with which he planned to knock God off His throne and supplant himself as king and god of the universe and there was war in heaven! Luckily, God won, cast Lucifer out of heaven and he became, instead of an holy angel, the Devil that he is today.

Religion says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was holy, but later fell from that estate. JESUS said of Satan, "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a MURDERER (not an angel) from the BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he, speaks of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44). In these studies on the Garden of Eden we are searching out the BEGINNING, probing into the very midsts of the past, the times before this age and past ages, that we might understand the grand and glorious purposes of our omnipotent and omniscient heavenly Father which He has purposed from the beginning of the world. How authoritatively the Lord Jesus reveals that way back there, in THE BEGINNING, in even HIS beginning, Satan WAS A MURDERER!

The verse we have just quoted states that Satan "Adobe not" in the truth. In the Greek text this verb is the imperfect tense of (ed: Greek form of steko(?)), I keep my standing, or simply, I stand, and the form is (esteken(?)) meaning that even before the fall or as far back as this person existed HE WAS NOT TRUE. Dr. Robert Young, in his Literal translation of the Bible, renders this verse: "He was a manslayer from the beginning, and in the truth HE HAS NOT STOOD, because there is no truth in him. The Rotherham version reads: "He was a murderer from the beginning, and IN THE TRUTH HE STOOD NOT; because the truth was not in him." J. B. Phillips gives the plainest and most accurate translation: "He ALWAYS WAS a MURDERER, and has NEVER DEALT WITH THE TRUTH, since the truth will have nothing to do with him. Whenever he tells a lie, he speaks in character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

MAN says that Satan IN THE BEGINNING was perfect and sinless. But the apostle John, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, penned these words in regard to Satan's origin: "He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING" (I Jn. 3:8). This could not be rightly said of Adam. According to Genesis 2 and 3, it was not until after Adam was created in spirit essence, after he was lowered into the realm of flesh, after he was placed in the Garden, after he named all the animals, after the woman was taken from his side, after she listened to the serpent and ate the forbidden fruit - it was AFTER ALL THESE THINGS that Adam sinned. Adam was not a sinner from the beginning. But the Devil, according to I Jn. 3:8 W-A-S A SINNER F-R-O-M T-H-E B-E-G-I-N-N-I-N-G! Now, if we are to believe the Bible means what it says - and I believe it does - we must believe that from his very beginning SATAN WAS EVIL.
God is not so shallow and naïve as to have such a creature pull the wool over His eyes. Adam and Eves fall was as much a part of His plan as the death of Jesus on the cross; Satan is but a tool in God’s hands.

Benoni said:

I disagree they do not all tie together, you seem to be totally ignoring what the Bible is saying about Satan's beginning and linking Lucifer to Satan where there is no link. Christ is the light bringer, Satan was always a murderer and liar; you cannot not have to different beginning; that is how God created Satan as a liar and murderer, Satan and Lucifer are not the same. Satan was never a son of God, Adam was a son of God, Jesus was a son of God, we are son's of God. God created Satan as the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his works; and I have created the waster to destroy.

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Remember, sons of God means ANGELS in some areas,
by this I will prove Satan is an angel (darkness)

Job 1:
6. - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7. - And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Isaiah 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Who's the Morning Star? Jesus

So, Who are the sons of morning in this context? His Angels.


Also, Jesus is not just a son of God.. He is the begotten son! Only one.

Kasih said:

Remember, sons of God means ANGELS in some areas,
by this I will prove Satan is an angel (darkness)

Job 1:
6. - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7. - And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Isaiah 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Who's the Morning Star? Jesus

So, Who are the sons of morning in this context? His Angels.


Also, Jesus is not just a son of God.. He is the begotten son! Only one.

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Angel/messenger:

How many times have I repeated the fact the word angel simply means messenger, anyone can be a messenger; the following is from Strong’s Concordance.

NT:9999 inserted word (x);

This word angel was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Sons of God

Job1:6 as well as many other places in scripture is translated "son of Elohim".

Strong’s OT:430 'elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:

There are many names and descriptive titles of God in the scriptures. He is called Counselor, King, Shepherd, Rock, Shield, High Tower, Strong Arm, Saviour, Redeemer, Father, Yahweh, Elohim, El Shaddai, El Elyon, Jesus (Yahshua), and many, many others. Someone has said that there are about two hundred names for God in the Bible! The moment one begins to splinter the absolute wholeness that God is, to examine all His multi-faceted aspects and attributes, the number of splinters are as infinite as God is infinite. Each name of God, as He progressively revealed Himself, was a fresh and fuller revelation of the nature of God. One was a revelation of His Self-existence, another of His might, another was the unveiling of His grace. One revealed something more of His wisdom, another of His holiness, another of His tenderness, another of His exaltation and honor, another of His judgment, and so on.


Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. You would have to do a pretty deep and lengthy study on the word Elohim; which I admit would be deep and fascinating. Sons of Elohim; son’s of God; yes that is what the scripture is saying; note Job 1:6.
Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation.

Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.



Son: Heb. OT:1121

ben (bane); from OT:1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., [like OT:1, OT:251, etc.]):

God:

OT:430

elohiym (el-o-heem'); plural of OT:433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:




begotten

NT:1080
gennao (ghen-nah'-o); from a variation of NT:1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:

KJV - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Man did not begot himself.....

Man, Adam and Jesus were all begotten by God, man did not begotten himself, but was begotten, born, brought forth or created, conceived by God; same with Adam.

tanzel said:

Hey Benoni,

I know that Doctrine you follow, and I don't want any part of it. I dealt
with that doctrine before, and it not Biblically base on all the scripture and
verses, you guys read from other books to determine facts, instead of
just reading the Bible from Genesis to revelation, clean cut. Now, some concordance goes right with the Bible, it suppose to conferns whats already written, not take away, but in all honesty its not necessary at all.

I know you disagree, you can be right all day lone. I will let other
people answer you.

peace in jesus name

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You know nothing of what I believe; you are the one who is bases what you believe on non biblical bias. You claim Lucifer is Satan and have no scripture to back it up. The Devil was a liar and murderer from the beginning and you rather believe your bias then what God’s Word declares. You are full of your own opinion and bias. Everything I presented I backed using the Bible; if this is not true then use the Bible to show me where I am wrong instead cutting and running full of your bias opinion.

Where did I quote anything but the Bible; you have a problem with the original language using Strong’s? Strong’s is one of the primary study guides of the Bible.

Your wrong again, the Bible is not clean cut, it is deep and it is spiritual, you are shallow and religious.