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This works both ways, naturally:The KGB's involvement amongst the Muslims in anti-American and anti-Jewish propaganda is no secret. Many of the world's greatest terrorists and Muslim leaders were first trained by the KGB, or at least recruited or funded by them. But this is not the thread to teach on cold war history.
Here is Isaiah 9 from the 1917 Jewish translation, from a Jewish publication:
5For a child is born unto us,
A son is given unto us;
And the government is upon his shoulder;
And his name is called
aPele-joez-el-gibbor-
Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
6That the government may be increased, And of peace there be no end,
Upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,
To establish it, and to uphold it
Through justice and through righteousness From henceforth even for ever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
The Jewish Publication Society: THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, Tanakh 1917 edition
He was already well into adulthood when this scripture was written; nor did he fulfill it at all.
Here is the Chaldee Paraphrase, written 30 years before Christ's birth, translated into English, albeit by a Christian writer, but the text used was that of the paraphrase:
The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law uponb Himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, the Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and to those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of Hosts this shall be done.
Interestingly, Johnathan Ben Uziel paraphrases Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. He predated the Messiah.
The KGB's involvement amongst the Muslims in anti-American and anti-Jewish propaganda is no secret. Many of the world's greatest terrorists and Muslim leaders were first trained by the KGB, or at least recruited or funded by them. But this is not the thread to teach on cold war history.
It was never believed the messiah would need two chances to complete the work, nor was it believed that the messiah would die for sins.
Only because the law of Moses was never understood - specifically the sacrifices:
LOL
The Russians were certainly involved in the Middle East, its true but it was mostly to support parties like the Baath Party which was founded by a Palestinian Christian, not a Muslim. Likewise there was a communist wing of the PLO known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. It too was predominantly Christian. The PFLP was responsible for the communist takeover of South Yemen. The KGB's most important agent in the Middle East was Wadie Haddad, who headed the PFLP after George Habash. Wadie Haddad was responsible for a number of attacks and kidnapping operations abroad.. In Haddad 1975 received arms for the movement directly from Soviet sources in a nighttime transfer in the Sea of Aden. Like George Habash, Wadie Haddad was born to Christian Palestinian parents, not Muslims.
Arafat was supported by the KGB. The Communists were also involved with anti-Shah propaganda in Iran and shaping up world opinion for his fall. Among the top ranks of the Iranian revolutionaries were many Communists who had conveniently grown beards. Even the dissident leader, Mir Hussain Mousavi has a Marxist background and worked with the KGB in the development of anti-dissident strategies and the Iranian secret service. According to Alexander Litvinenko, whose name I misspell, (he was the one poisoned by Polonium 210) Al-Qaeda's number two guy (who is now number one) was trained by the FSB in Russia. Many famous Egyptian born terrorists or leaders have similar allegations. But as I said, this is not the place for cold war education.
We are still left with what I said before. This could be referring to the name of a person very easily and this is just a literal translation of that as opposed to the name itself. Obviously, having a clear name in the text of the messiah would mean everybody would be named that, right?http://books.google.com/books?id=_b...ee+paraphrase+Isaiah#v=snippet&q=lamb&f=false So, I'd say
this is not conclusive enough to say that messiah has to be HaShem.
Also, it would still be unfulfilled in your idea. Jesus was never king of Israel, the government never rested on his shoulders, there is no world peace, etc.
Other rabbis put Moses and David into Isaiah 53. Others said all righteous people who suffer are seen in Isaiah 53. Yes, some did say messiah was in there, but for the suffering, never for the dying. It was never believed the messiah would need two chances to complete the work, nor was it believed that the messiah would die for sins.
FYI, if you're going to paraphrase
Roots of Islamic Terrorism: How Communists Helped Fundamentalists
you should at least provide the citation.
Also the phrase "there were many Communists who had conveniently grown beards" was interesting, but you did not have to lift it entirely.
Just an FYI.
I went from memory, actually. I've been reading Jeff Nyquist for over 10 years, as well as books by Golitsyn and other defectors. I see you're still sore over me quoting Brigham Young at you with sources.
The evidence is so heavy, how can you carry it and dismiss it?
You are using plenty of the easily dismissed ones. There is no virgin birth prophecy. It is about a child being born that the King at that time will see and will have a sign.
In what I have laid out, the entire world is blessed through the Jews. It works just as well.
Enkil, you are also misrepresenting what I have said. I do not know if this is intentional or not, but it is hard for me to address your points when you keep saying I am stating things I am not.
Would it be possible for you to shorten your posts? I have a difficult time addressing a giant post. If we could have two or three points at a time instead of 10 it would be better for our conversation. It feels like I have to address this giant post everytime you post and it is a strain.
The sign was not the child being born. The sign was the child eating honey which means that there would be prosperity in the land. Also, it says that before the child knew right from wrong, the enemies would be gone. That cannot apply to Jesus as it makes no sense.Almah, which is for a unmarried woman, a maiden, could either be a "sign" of an illegitimate birth or a miraculous sign of a child born through a virgin. If it was the former, I don't consider it much of a "sign" to look at, and no such sign was recorded in the history of any such king that surely would have been of interest... Beyond Jesus Christ that is. And it is not a huge leap to connect it with the next prophecy of a "child given," who would be called "The Mighty God," the root of Jesse, who would reign forever and ever.
But you have not explained how the entire world has been blessed through the slaughter of the Jews under Titus, or the slaughter of Jews throughout world history, even to the present day. You did not even explain how the destruction of the Temple fits with Isaiah 53, when it specifically states this lamb would be blameless. Yet, from the description of Josephus and other histories, there is no way to look at it beyond a catastrophic judgment of God, similar to the last destruction of the Temple and the Babylonian exile. Except this time it has gone on for almost 2,000 years. I don't know about you, but I don't feel good when some terrorist explodes in a school bus filled with Jewish children. You also have not explained how Hezekiah fulfilled those scriptures, or of Jacob's pediction, or reconciled Daniel, and so on and so forth.
Where have I done so?
The sign was not the child being born. The sign was the child eating honey which means that there would be prosperity in the land. Also, it says that before the child knew right from wrong, the enemies would be gone. That cannot apply to Jesus as it makes no sense.
Ignore Hezekiah please. We are going to drop that right now.
It is not that the slaughter of Jews blesses it the world. It is that eventually all will be brought to HaShem when messiah comes and the Temple is rebuilt.
The destruction of the Temple does not fit Isaiah 53 because Isaiah 53 has to do with the messianic age. This has not occurred yet.
If Jesus coming soon can be 2000 years, why should it bother me that we have been without the Temple for 2000 years?
Arafat was supported by the KGB.
Even the dissident leader, Mir Hussain Mousavi has a Marxist background and worked with the KGB
Evidence?
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