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what messianic prophecies where not fulfilled by jesus?

Jane_the_Bane

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This works both ways, naturally:
during the cold war, both West and East had their secret services stir up as much unrest as they could in the opposite camp, even if that meant promoting religious extremism or ultra-nationalist sentiment.

So while the Soviets supplied the Palestinians with weapons and more, the CIA did the same for the Afghans - just to mention an obvious example.
 
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LoAmmi

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We are still left with what I said before. This could be referring to the name of a person very easily and this is just a literal translation of that as opposed to the name itself. Obviously, having a clear name in the text of the messiah would mean everybody would be named that, right?http://books.google.com/books?id=_b...ee+paraphrase+Isaiah#v=snippet&q=lamb&f=false So, I'd say
this is not conclusive enough to say that messiah has to be HaShem.

Also, it would still be unfulfilled in your idea. Jesus was never king of Israel, the government never rested on his shoulders, there is no world peace, etc.

Interestingly, Johnathan Ben Uziel paraphrases Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. He predated the Messiah.

Other rabbis put Moses and David into Isaiah 53. Others said all righteous people who suffer are seen in Isaiah 53. Yes, some did say messiah was in there, but for the suffering, never for the dying. It was never believed the messiah would need two chances to complete the work, nor was it believed that the messiah would die for sins.
 
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smaneck

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LOL

The Russians were certainly involved in the Middle East, its true but it was mostly to support parties like the Baath Party which was founded by a Palestinian Christian, not a Muslim. Likewise there was a communist wing of the PLO known as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. It too was predominantly Christian. The PFLP was responsible for the communist takeover of South Yemen. The KGB's most important agent in the Middle East was Wadie Haddad, who headed the PFLP after George Habash. Wadie Haddad was responsible for a number of attacks and kidnapping operations abroad.. In Haddad 1975 received arms for the movement directly from Soviet sources in a nighttime transfer in the Sea of Aden. Like George Habash, Wadie Haddad was born to Christian Palestinian parents, not Muslims.
 
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razeontherock

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It was never believed the messiah would need two chances to complete the work, nor was it believed that the messiah would die for sins.

Only because the law of Moses was never understood - specifically the sacrifices:

"[Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: (Colossians 1:27) To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"


"according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, (Romans 16:26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"


"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (1 Corinthians 2:8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

"How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, (Ephesians 3:4) Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"
 
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LoAmmi

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Only because the law of Moses was never understood - specifically the sacrifices:

According to Christianity.

I think we understand the Law quite well, having had centuries more experience with it than Christians, who don't even keep it to understand it at all.

Yes, Christianity can claim it was hidden the whole time. Christianity can claim many things. It does not mean it is correct just because it is claimed.
 
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Arafat was supported by the KGB. The Communists were also involved with anti-Shah propaganda in Iran and shaping up world opinion for his fall. Among the top ranks of the Iranian revolutionaries were many Communists who had conveniently grown beards. Even the dissident leader, Mir Hussain Mousavi has a Marxist background and worked with the KGB in the development of anti-dissident strategies and the Iranian secret service. According to Alexander Litvinenko, whose name I misspell, (he was the one poisoned by Polonium 210) Al-Qaeda's number two guy (who is now number one) was trained by the FSB in Russia. Many famous Egyptian born terrorists or leaders have similar allegations. But as I said, this is not the place for cold war education.
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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FYI, if you're going to paraphrase

Roots of Islamic Terrorism: How Communists Helped Fundamentalists

you should at least provide the citation.

Also the phrase "there were many Communists who had conveniently grown beards" was interesting, but you did not have to lift it entirely.

Just an FYI.
 
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But this does not really answer all the other problems with making Israel the suffering lamb, including the fact that the destruction of the temple coincided with mass apostasy amongst the Jewish people. It's just saying that we can read something into it, if we squint really hard, even though logic and reality does not support it. And the idea that if Israel suffers more, there will be more peace, seems pretty crazy and counterproductive for the Jews who would preferably avoid another holocaust.

The great problem, and the pattern, with all these interpretations of yours is that they do a lot to remove the most natural meaning of the scriptures. Hezekiah, for example, was never called "The Everlasting Father," nor was his reign marked with peace and expansion. Just the opposite, actually. And this peace and expansion was not slated to continue forever and ever... in fact, the end of his reign is marked by the prophecy of Isaiah that his sons would be taken into bondage, and the princes would all be made eunuchs in the Babylonian court. The appelation of "peace everlasting" and a Kingdom without end are all direct appellations for the Messiah Himself, the "Savior," who is the only one with a Kingdom that will last forever.

But since the time of Hezekiah, the scepter has long left the family of David, Israel was reduced to being a province, and finally even the Temple was torn to pieces. Notice also that the promises to Daniel, which included an end to sin and was given in the sense of good tidings, ended itself in the destruction of the Temple, which was later fulfilled in 70ad! And what was it that Jacob said? "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."
This time has come and long gone, and who else came besides Jesus the Messiah? But instead of embracing Him, you would rather make the interpretation of scripture so convoluted as to have no sense or pattern! To make them fit, one must ignore history and the things that happened with each individual who is replaced into these scriptures! But with Christ, it is a perfect match.

Isaiah 7, a virgin will conceive and bring forth a Son, and He shall be called Immanuel, God with us. In Genesis, the serpent is told that he would be crushed by the seed of the woman. In Genesis 12, Abraham is promised that through him all the families of the world would be blessed. (Who can do this but Christ, who offers salvation for all who come to Him? Or do you still suppose Israel is the sacrificial lamb of all the world? And what would the Kings shut their mouths at, and consider things they had never heard, if not the Gospel whose prophetic origins were never heard by them? Isaiah 52) In Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Who else came from Bethlehem, but Jesus Christ, whose goings forth have been from old? Who came to heal the sick, and open the eyes of the blind, as Isaiah 35? Who came riding upon an ass into Jerusalem, as in Zechariah 9? And yet do you suppose the Messiah would be grand and full of pomp, who would not be sold for thirty pieces of silver (Zech 11, Amos 2)? He was rejected of men, a King detestable to the world. Isaiah 53 shows the suffering Christ, taken to prison and delivered to judgment as an "offering for sin." His enemies would surround Him; they would crucify Him, and laugh Him to scorn (Psalm 22). He would suffer and would be cut off, as in Daniel 9, but yet he would "prolong his days," and He will "see His seed." In Psalm 16:10, it further shows that Christ must rise from the grave. "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." David has long been dead, and his bones long buried in Israel. So who is this Holy One, if not the Messiah, who rose again and ascended on high? (Psa 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.) So Christ needed to suffer, and conquer over sin and death, and now He sits in heaven till God makes His enemies His footstool.


The evidence is so heavy, how can you carry it and dismiss it?
 
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I went from memory, actually, it was no paraphrase. I've been reading Jeff Nyquist for over 10 years, as well as books by Golitsyn and other defectors, and arguing on their behalf. I see you're still sore over me quoting the Prophet Brigham Young's racist rantings at you with sources.
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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I went from memory, actually. I've been reading Jeff Nyquist for over 10 years, as well as books by Golitsyn and other defectors. I see you're still sore over me quoting Brigham Young at you with sources.

Plagiarism is plagiarism. Your research is poor at best.
 
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LoAmmi

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The evidence is so heavy, how can you carry it and dismiss it?

You are using plenty of the easily dismissed ones. There is no virgin birth prophecy. It is about a child being born that the King at that time will see and will have a sign.

In what I have laid out, the entire world is blessed through the Jews. It works just as well.

I already backed away from the Hezekiah reference. It isn't important.

I may have time to deal with the rest of it, but I have seen all of these and have looked into them. None of them hold water. They merely look good until you examine everything.

We are told what to look for in the messiah. Jesus did one of those things: rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.
 
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LoAmmi

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Enkil, you are also misrepresenting what I have said. I do not know if this is intentional or not, but it is hard for me to address your points when you keep saying I am stating things I am not.

Would it be possible for you to shorten your posts? I have a difficult time addressing a giant post. If we could have two or three points at a time instead of 10 it would be better for our conversation. It feels like I have to address this giant post everytime you post and it is a strain.
 
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You are using plenty of the easily dismissed ones. There is no virgin birth prophecy. It is about a child being born that the King at that time will see and will have a sign.

Almah, which is for a unmarried woman, a maiden, could either be a "sign" of an illegitimate birth or a miraculous sign of a child born through a virgin. If it was the former, I don't consider it much of a "sign" to look at, and no such sign was recorded in the history of any such king that surely would have been of interest... Beyond Jesus Christ that is. And it is not a huge leap to connect it with the next prophecy of a "child given," who would be called "The Mighty God," the root of Jesse, who would reign forever and ever.

In what I have laid out, the entire world is blessed through the Jews. It works just as well.

But you have not explained how the entire world has been blessed through the slaughter of the Jews under Titus, or the slaughter of Jews throughout world history, even to the present day. You did not even explain how the destruction of the Temple fits with Isaiah 53, when it specifically states this lamb would be blameless. Yet, from the description of Josephus and other histories, there is no way to look at it beyond a catastrophic judgment of God, similar to the last destruction of the Temple and the Babylonian exile. Except this time it has gone on for almost 2,000 years. I don't know about you, but I don't feel good when some terrorist explodes in a school bus filled with Jewish children. You also have not explained how Hezekiah fulfilled those scriptures, or of Jacob's pediction, or reconciled Daniel, and so on and so forth.

You have all these explanations, but they do not make logical sense or fit with the usual behavior of God throughout the Old Testament.
 
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Enkil, you are also misrepresenting what I have said. I do not know if this is intentional or not, but it is hard for me to address your points when you keep saying I am stating things I am not.

Where have I done so?


Yes, no problem. And take your time with them. This is no competition or fight.
 
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LoAmmi

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The sign was not the child being born. The sign was the child eating honey which means that there would be prosperity in the land. Also, it says that before the child knew right from wrong, the enemies would be gone. That cannot apply to Jesus as it makes no sense.


Ignore Hezekiah please. We are going to drop that right now.

It is not that the slaughter of Jews blesses it the world. It is that eventually all will be brought to HaShem when messiah comes and the Temple is rebuilt.

The destruction of the Temple does not fit Isaiah 53 because Isaiah 53 has to do with the messianic age. This has not occurred yet.

If Jesus coming soon can be 2000 years, why should it bother me that we have been without the Temple for 2000 years?
 
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It says, a sign will be given, and immediately speaks of Almah and the birth of a child who will be called "God with us." How does it skip that and move on to the next verse?


Ignore Hezekiah please. We are going to drop that right now.

Then if the scripture does not refer to Hezekiah, who does it refer to and how, so we can pick him up next?

It is not that the slaughter of Jews blesses it the world. It is that eventually all will be brought to HaShem when messiah comes and the Temple is rebuilt.

So then we return to the original problem. That is, Israel is allegedly a sin offering for the Kings of the Earth. But this does not square with the previous scripture in Isaiah 52, where it says the Kings would shut up their mouths, and consider the things they had never heard before, since the next chapter transitions to the Kings allegedly speaking about Israel being a reproach of men, who they reject, who is wounded by God for the mistakes of the Kings, and by doing so makes the Kings righteous... even though other scriptures also state that Messiah will make His enemies His footstool.

The destruction of the Temple does not fit Isaiah 53 because Isaiah 53 has to do with the messianic age. This has not occurred yet.

It does fit with Daniel 9, where the end of sin, anointing the most Holy, and so on and so forth, was slated to be done within 70 prophetic weeks, including the "Anointed One" being cut off, concluding with the destruction of the Temple. This is no interpretation. These are the plain words of the scripture.

If Jesus coming soon can be 2000 years, why should it bother me that we have been without the Temple for 2000 years?

It should bother you, because the timeframe within the Old Testament prophecies have long come and gone. But I have the testimony of the Apostles, and the visions they gave of the ending of this final dispensation. If it is not so, both of us are telling tales of idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
 
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smaneck

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Arafat was supported by the KGB.

I presume your source is Ion Mihai Pacepa who insists the KGB was behind Kennedy's assassination as well. I don't buy it.

The Communists were also involved with anti-Shah propaganda in Iran and shaping up world opinion for his fall. Among the top ranks of the Iranian revolutionaries were many Communists who had conveniently grown beards.

Even the dissident leader, Mir Hussain Mousavi has a Marxist background and worked with the KGB

Evidence?
 
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