What Is Wrong With Idol Worship?

Theowne said:

BTW selwyn, I've already said we should just ignore anything you say...you never make a clear argument (or don't have the mind capacity to understand, period), so I don't really see what is to be done with you.

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Why? He's right to contest Hindu claims about the Satyanarayana Puja. I happen to know that MahaSudarshanChakra's claims about it aren't true.

Personally I think idols and images were an important stage in the developement of spirituality. Iconography is a kind of study of these icons and images... They are like a language and convey certain stories to remind people to be devout perhaps or to encorage an attitude.

It's also true that many of these images were frequesntly used by people who were preliterate... They would be reminded of the great stories and legends on entering a church or temple.

To me other than a study in culture and art I don't see their value. But many people though still seem to feel a deep need to have a picture of Jesus or Krishna or of an Icon and so for them it still has deep significance and aids in their devotional life...

Baha'is do not use images in their worship.

- Art

Theowne said:

Maybe you should ask him what he means by that.

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Oops. Do you mean to say that you never understood what he said or meant but still jumped to conclusions based on your own presumptions?

Theowne said:

I am doubtful that what he considers "If you ask me if the idol is God, yes, it is.", is identical to what you have interpreted that to mean.

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Where I have I done any interpretation here to begin with? Isn't it that I was just asking you if that is exactly what you denied?

Theowne said:

Because in case you forgot, he just stated in the post above you that :

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Man. With all due respects, in case if you had forgotten, let me remind you that my question to you was if hindus do consider idols as God/gods which you strongly denied and my question was not if hindus do consider only idols as God/gods.

Theowne said:

No. I was responding to your incoherent claims about the incoherent arguments regarding the inchorent discussions which took place incoherently regarding the incoherent....oops, sorry, I got wrapped up in selwyn-talk there.

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Man. For your information, Sudharshan claimed that hinduic scripture as a whole is incoherent and that hinduism can afford to be incoherent. That is why I said that you don't have to feel bad about it. So don't even think of doing the mistake of incoherently claiming in here that I am incoherent in here.

Theowne said:

Generally, when one starts to argues with people, it is deducted that that person wishes to argue with people.

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Oh. Is that why you are now arguing with me in here ? But sorry man. I have no intention of arguing with you or anyone in here.

Theowne said:

So basically....you wish to spout out senseless accusations - and then tell others to "ignore them". Yep, wouldn't that be a great world, huh.

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What? Accusations?!! Man. Do you even know the meaning of accusations? Isn't it that I am just asking questions in here?

Theowne said:

It's okay, I don't feel bad. I do feel a bit bad that you are stuck down at your level, but it can't be helped.

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Oh. So you don't feel bad about your incoherence!!! Rather you seem to be really feeling proud of it, right? On the other hand, man, did you notice that, you seem to be catching up with the fever of superiority complex? Could it be that it is due to hinduic casteism?!!!!!

Could it be that it is due to hinduic casteism?

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Please allow my version.

Context: Arunma's recent criticism of Galilean's posts regarding Christian/white identity.

Could it be due to Christianity's enslavement of dark-skinned people in history?

As stated before, just an equivalent example, except from what a Non-Christian would say. The intention of my version is not to be correct, but rather to show the stupidity of the original statement.

Oops. Do you mean to say that you never understood what he said or meant but still jumped to conclusions based on your own presumptions?

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selwyn, how are you able to take perfectly logical sentences and convert them into some garbage? You are simply arguing with yourself, you should stop. I know what he meant, but you seem to interpret it as something else - even though the rest of his post does not support that implication at all.

Man. With all due respects, in case if you had forgotten, let me remind you that my question to you was if hindus do consider idols as God/gods which you strongly denied and my question was not if hindus do consider only idols as God/gods

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MahaSudarshanChakra -"no, it is an attribute of God. More like waves in an ocean, not the ocean itself."

Man. For your information, Sudharshan claimed that hinduic scripture as a whole is incoherent and that hinduism can afford to be incoherent. That is why I said that you don't have to feel bad about it. So don't even think of doing the mistake of incoherently claiming in here that I am incoherent in here.

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But the fact is, to be incoherent, one must realize the words are incoherent in the full in comparison to the incoherent interpretations of the incoherent passages of the full idea which itself is incoherent when compared to incoherent ideas from incoherent......oops, there I go again

Oh. Is that why you are now arguing with me in here ?

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Who said I didn't want to argue?

I have no intention of arguing with you or anyone in here.

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So why are you doing it now? Why did you start an argument by pointing out my name directly? Did you expect me to just let it pass by?

you seem to be catching up with the fever of superiority complex? Could it be that it is due to hinduic casteism?!!!!!

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In fact, I meant intelligence level, which you are clearly lacking, but now that you mention it, yes you are a bit spiritually impaired (hey, you asked for it)

In fact, I meant intelligence level, which you are clearly lacking, but now that you mention it, yes you are a bit spiritually impaired

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I don't know, when you just come out and say it straight instead of implying similar things using words such as incoherence and yeah, you know the rest, it seems kind of mean.

IronPillar said:

God made man in HIS own image, but man turned to man-made gods to worship them and made a fool of himself.This grieved God's heart and provoked Him. What is wrong with idol worship? First of all ,God Almighty , who made the universe and then man in His image, commanded, "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall make for yourself no molten gods. "The law with the Ten Commandments was given to the Jews first And When God turned to the gentiles after that the word God gave through the apostles to the nations was the same concerning idol worship ..In fact all nations were idol worshipers, including Rome, now the seat of Pope. The following is the main argument in the Holy Bible against idolatry. St. Paul who was the first missionary to Athens preached this message in that city. "The God who made the world and everything in it—He is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live, so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Being God’s offspring, then, we shouldn’t think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination. “Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed" – Who is Lord Jesus Christ. . From The Book of the Acts of the Apostles;17:24-31] [ Remember the fact that Greece and Athens were centers of idol worship and haven for gods of all kind.] The Holy Bible says;"The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."Jeremiah;10:11.In the past nations of the earth in their ignorance worshiped gods that cannot see or hear or speak. Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Greece, Rome all these countries were once filled with idol worship.The names of those native gods are mentioned in the ancient writings as well as in the Bible. But in course of time ,these nations who earnestly worshiped and served these gods became conscious of the foolishness of serving them and threw them away as dirt.All the gods of the Egyptians and the Babylonians and the Romans and the Greeks and many other nations came to nothing No one even remembers their names any more.But the God in the heaven is the True God ,He is the Living God and He is the Eternal King.His kingdom rules over all things

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After all that I must ask, do you have a picture of Jesus hanging on a wall? Do you wear a cross around your neck? Do you bring an evergreen tree into your house in December and decorate it?

lilithrising

indianx said:

Please allow my version.

Context: Arunma's recent criticism of Galilean's posts regarding Christian/white identity.

Could it be due to Christianity's enslavement of dark-skinned people in history?

As stated before, just an equivalent example, except from what a Non-Christian would say. The intention of my version is not to be correct, but rather to show the stupidity of the original statement.

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For your information, that is not a original statment, but a question. And did you note that you yourself could only recognize that it is arunma's criticism of galilean's posts? Doesn't that imply that it is just criticism of posts up there? And isn't that what is expected naturally in a discussion in a forum - criticism of posts and not people?

On the other hand, isn't it obvious that your friend here is happily mocking and belittling people in here rather than attacking the issue at hand?

Theowne said:

selwyn, how are you able to take perfectly logical sentences and convert them into some garbage? You are simply arguing with yourself, you should stop. I know what he meant, but you seem to interpret it as something else - even though the rest of his post does not support that implication at all.)


MahaSudarshanChakra -"no, it is an attribute of God. More like waves in an ocean, not the ocean itself.")

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Man. Isn't it that, the obvious contention between Rahul and Sudharshan in here is that one claims idols to be just symbols while the other claims out here that the idols to be God/Gods? That being the case, why are you so desperate in here that you have started deceiving yourself and lying to yourself like this in the name of intellectual smartness? Hopefully you won't end up cheating yourself in here against facts because of your obvious desire to win arguments in here.

Theowne said:

But the fact is, to be incoherent, one must realize the words are incoherent in the full in comparison to the incoherent interpretations of the incoherent passages of the full idea which itself is incoherent when compared to incoherent ideas from incoherent......oops, there I go again )

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Are you trying to prove your incoherent claims in here?

Theowne said:

Who said I didn't want to argue?)

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There you go. After all your drama in here and claims of ignoring me are you finally admitting incoherently that you are in here for argument with me? Man. Then why on earth did you declare that it is pointless to argue while continuing to do that in here? Oh man. Are you alright?

Theowne said:

So why are you doing it now? Why did you start an argument by pointing out my name directly? Did you expect me to just let it pass by?)

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Man. For your kind information, I just suggested if you might want to reconsider your opinion of hinduic claims about idols. That is all. Where did you get the idea that I wanted to argue with you? And after all that, I am just asking questions in here. Now that you have admitted that you like arguing out here, isn't it obvious who is arguing in here?

Theowne said:

In fact, I meant intelligence level, which you are clearly lacking, but now that you mention it, yes you are a bit spiritually impaired (hey, you asked for it)

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After all these claims of intellectual superiority, isn't it ironical that this so called "intellectual" is forced to loose control of his so called spiritual sanity and respond to my simple suggestion sheepishly trying to defend himself and argue in here after all the claims and suggestions to others to ignore my posts going to the extent of admitting in here that he is in here for arguments which he declared earlier as pointless?

selwyn said:

For your information, that is not a original statment, but a question. And did you note that you yourself could only recognize that it is arunma's criticism of galilean's posts? Doesn't that imply that it is just criticism of posts up there? And isn't that what is expected naturally in a discussion in a forum - criticism of posts and not people?

On the other hand, isn't it obvious that your friend here is happily mocking and belittling people in here rather than attacking the issue at hand?

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You attributed Theowne's statement to "Hinduic casteism", which is in no way or form connected to what he said. So, using your always brilliant logic, I attributed Galilean's recent posts regarding Christianity and Western/European identity (atleast according to Arun) to Christianity's subjugation of dark-skinned people throughout history.

And notice again, that I said my intention is not to be correct, but rather to show the stupidity of your original statement or question. I know Jesus talked about nothing of the sort and Christians deviated from his teachings when they did the things they did, the same way the caste system in its recent form has deviated from the Vedic teachings and if you want to argue about that, start a new thread.

IronPillar said:

God made man in HIS own image, but man turned to man-made gods to worship them and made a fool of himself.This grieved God's heart and provoked Him. What is wrong with idol worship? First of all ,God Almighty , who made the universe and then man in His image, commanded, "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall make for yourself no molten gods. "The law with the Ten Commandments was given to the Jews first And When God turned to the gentiles after that the word God gave through the apostles to the nations was the same concerning idol worship ..In fact all nations were idol worshipers, including Rome, now the seat of Pope. The following is the main argument in the Holy Bible against idolatry. St. Paul who was the first missionary to Athens preached this message in that city. "The God who made the world and everything in it—He is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live, so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ Being God’s offspring, then, we shouldn’t think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination. “Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed" – Who is Lord Jesus Christ. . From The Book of the Acts of the Apostles;17:24-31] [ Remember the fact that Greece and Athens were centers of idol worship and haven for gods of all kind.] The Holy Bible says;"The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."Jeremiah;10:11.In the past nations of the earth in their ignorance worshiped gods that cannot see or hear or speak. Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Greece, Rome all these countries were once filled with idol worship.The names of those native gods are mentioned in the ancient writings as well as in the Bible. But in course of time ,these nations who earnestly worshiped and served these gods became conscious of the foolishness of serving them and threw them away as dirt.All the gods of the Egyptians and the Babylonians and the Romans and the Greeks and many other nations came to nothing No one even remembers their names any more.But the God in the heaven is the True God ,He is the Living God and He is the Eternal King.His kingdom rules over all things

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What bible says regarding idols mean nothing to us. They are all valid to people who beleive that it is the infalliable word of God for which there is no proof and for which are enough counter proofs.

When Christians cannot challenge the might of Hinduism and its philsopical depth they try to attacks some its weaker links - idol worship and the caste system. But history has proved that it is simply not possible to attack it this way.

I challenge any christian to show an evidence from the Bhagvad Gita or the vedas or the vedanta sutras where idol worship is recommended or made mandatory. I also challenege them to show any passages supporting the hereditary caste system. There is none - that is why Christianity has failed in India, because these are all lies and cannot be proved.

Temple worship, Idol worship etc find no place even in Ramayana - show me one verse in proof. Not even in Mahabartha.

Bhagavata is the earliest Hindus scripture where temple worship and idol worship etc figure along with Panchartara Agamas of the Bhagavatha religion. These are later developments in Hinduism used to protect the religion from goin astray, and making it more organised. Temple worship never existed in olden times because no description is ever found in Ramayana.

Hinduism is essentially about higher spiritual disciplines such as Yoga and advanced meditative practices which are virtually non existant elsewhere, and that is what that has held the religion from getting washed away in the past. Organised movements like the Bhakti movement, temple worship and later rituals are the ways Hinduism evolved to counter non vedic religions like Buddhism, Jainism, and religions like Islam and Christianity. It has in it enough flexibility to adapt an any way in future and free from dogma - challenge it here in India and it will digest you.

False accusations like this will never be taken seriously by any Hindu if that is tha aim of the OP. Show proof about idolatory from ancient Hindu scripture. Only the Agama literature mentions about them - which are more about an organised systematic religeous movement that protected the religion from the maleachas and intruders like Huns, and has continued to this day.

Some day, the Hindus will go back to their golden days of Yoga and higher spiritual disciplines...and stop beleiving in superstitions and fairy tales.

Man. Isn't it that, the obvious contention between Rahul and Sudharshan in here is that one claims idols to be just symbols while the other claims out here that the idols to be God/Gods?

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Yes, they have varying beliefs in regard to a certain aspect of Hinduism. And your point.....?

There you go. After all your drama in here and claims of ignoring me are you finally admitting incoherently that you are in here for argument with me?

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selwyn, I think you need to go to www.dictionary.com. There are words other than "incoherent" in the english language, you know. And how was I "admitting incoherently". I think I admitted it quite clearly. Are you just throwing that word around cause it sounds cool?

I said I am on these forums partly to debate, yes. With people who actually have something to say and don't just run around repeating things (incoherent things )

For your kind information, I just suggested if you might want to reconsider your opinion of hinduic claims about idols.

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Right, and I suppose I was just supposed to say "oh, selwyns right, he is so right, damn I'm going back to christianity!" ? Just ignore that comment?

After all these claims of intellectual superiority, isn't it ironical that this so called "intellectual" is forced to loose control of his so called spiritual sanity and respond to my simple suggestion sheepishly trying to defend himself and argue in here after all the claims and suggestions to others to ignore my posts going to the extent of admitting in here that he is in here for arguments which he declared earlier as pointless?

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selwyn, let me introduce to my friend. His name is comma. He lives right here ---> ,

IronPillar said:

"Their idols are silver and gold, The work of men's hands. They have mouths, but they do not speak; Eyes they have, but they do not see; They have ears, but they do not hear; Noses they have, but they do not smell;They have hands, but they do not handle; Feet they have, but they do not walk; Nor do they mutter through their throat.Those who make them are like them; So is everyone who trusts in them." Psalm;115:4-8

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Have you seen god? Have you touched him? Have you looked into eyes? Have you sat with him and had a conversation? How do you KNOW he exists? If not then he's an invisible figment of your imagination. So what's the difference between an idol that cannot speak, hear, smell nor see and an invisible friend that cannot be seen, heard nor touched?

lilithrising

" But an hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. Yes, the Father wants such people to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Lord Jesus Christ
[John;4:23,24][/QUOTE]

Ironpillar,

It's impossible to have a rational discussion with someone who just posts scripture and cannot interpret nor debate on their own.
BTW you ARE in the non-christian section of this forum. Would you pay any attention if I quoted Rambam?

lilithrising

satay said:

Then again malecchas on this site will not understand this since they lack the capacity.

satay

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Stop calling people that you moron.

Do you know what it means and please enlighten the rest of us as to why it makes you violate the beliefs of your own religion.