What Is Wrong With Idol Worship?

IronPillar · Oct 28, 2005

God made man in HIS own image, but man turned to man-made gods to worship them and made a fool of himself.This grieved God's heart and provoked Him. What is wrong with idol worship? First of all ,God Almighty , who made the universe and then man in His image, commanded, "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall make for yourself no molten gods. "The law with the Ten Commandments was given to the Jews first And When God turned to the gentiles after that the word God gave through the apostles to the nations was the same concerning idol worship ..In fact all nations were idol worshipers, including Rome, now the seat of Pope. The following is the main argument in the Holy Bible against idolatry. St. Paul who was the first missionary to Athens preached this message in that city. "The God who made the world and everything in itHe is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live, so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. Being Gods offspring, then, we shouldnt think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed" Who is Lord Jesus Christ. . From The Book of the Acts of the Apostles;17:24-31] [ Remember the fact that Greece and Athens were centers of idol worship and haven for gods of all kind.] The Holy Bible says;"The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."Jeremiah;10:11.In the past nations of the earth in their ignorance worshiped gods that cannot see or hear or speak. Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Greece, Rome all these countries were once filled with idol worship.The names of those native gods are mentioned in the ancient writings as well as in the Bible. But in course of time ,these nations who earnestly worshiped and served these gods became conscious of the foolishness of serving them and threw them away as dirt.All the gods of the Egyptians and the Babylonians and the Romans and the Greeks and many other nations came to nothing No one even remembers their names any more.But the God in the heaven is the True God ,He is the Living God and He is the Eternal King.His kingdom rules over all things

vajradhara · Oct 28, 2005

Namaste Ironpillar,

idol worship is of little benefit to the spiritual development of a sentient being. perhaps it can be of some assistance to beings which require an external locus for their practice, however, this is more a matter of capacity than anything else.

metta,

~v

satay · Oct 28, 2005

IronPillar said:
God made man in HIS own image, but man turned to man-made gods to worship them and made a fool of himself.This grieved God's heart and provoked Him. What is wrong with idol worship? First of all ,God Almighty , who made the universe and then man in His image, commanded, "You shall have no other gods before me. "You shall make for yourself no molten gods. "The law with the Ten Commandments was given to the Jews first And When God turned to the gentiles after that the word God gave through the apostles to the nations was the same concerning idol worship ..In fact all nations were idol worshipers, including Rome, now the seat of Pope. The following is the main argument in the Holy Bible against idolatry. St. Paul who was the first missionary to Athens preached this message in that city. "The God who made the world and everything in itHe is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in shrines made by hands. Neither is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives everyone life and breath and all things. From one man He has made every nation of men to live all over the earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live, so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, For we are also His offspring. Being Gods offspring, then, we shouldnt think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by the Man He has appointed" Who is Lord Jesus Christ. . From The Book of the Acts of the Apostles;17:24-31] [ Remember the fact that Greece and Athens were centers of idol worship and haven for gods of all kind.] The Holy Bible says;"The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under the heavens."Jeremiah;10:11.In the past nations of the earth in their ignorance worshiped gods that cannot see or hear or speak. Egypt,Assyria,Babylon, Greece, Rome all these countries were once filled with idol worship.The names of those native gods are mentioned in the ancient writings as well as in the Bible. But in course of time ,these nations who earnestly worshiped and served these gods became conscious of the foolishness of serving them and threw them away as dirt.All the gods of the Egyptians and the Babylonians and the Romans and the Greeks and many other nations came to nothing No one even remembers their names any more.But the God in the heaven is the True God ,He is the Living God and He is the Eternal King.His kingdom rules over all things

This probably belongs to the 'christian' sections of this site.

I do not believe in your false, man-made scripture and thus it has no authority on the way I practice dharma.

satay

Theowne · Oct 28, 2005

Like satay said there is no point in responding to an argument you make based on the Bible.

But in regards to idol worship in general, I find this quote:

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/1202.html

But it must be admitted that all worship is idol worship. Primitive man made a scrawl of a head on a rock and called it God. Civilized man shuts his eyes and imagines an anthropomorphic image with arms and legs and calls it God. Both are idols. The difference is not one of kind but of degree. Hinduism has the courage to say so and also has the humanity to admit within its fold even those who cannot rise above grossly concrete representations of God. A common illiterate labourer and an intellectual scholar require different concepts of God to satisfy them. So Hinduism declares that each can worship God in whatever form suits the competence and stage of spiritual evolution of the worshipper. The Absolute brahman, in relation to the material universe is called Isvara. When we refer to Isvara in His creative aspect, we call Him brahmA. Note the distinction between the word brahman (which is a neuter gender noun, standing for the Absolute Transcendental Reality) and the word brahmA (which is a masculine noun standing for the name of the Creator-Aspect of Godhead). When we refer to His aspect of sustainer and protector, we call Him vishNu. When we think of Him in His destructive and dissolutive aspect, we refer to Him as Siva. In each case the power or energy of the aspect is referred to as the corresponding Goddess. Just as sunlight is inseparable from the sun, so also is the power (Sakti) of ISvara inseparable from ISvara and India naturally worships this power as parA-Sakti, the Supreme Mother Goddess of the Universe.

The doctrine of ishTa devatA (favourite divinity) may now be stated. A person may choose the deity that satisfies one's spiritual longing and make that the object of one's adoration, love and worship. Since each name and form of God is only a symbol that points to something that is beyond and since each is only a representative of some aspect or manifestation of the Supreme Reality, it is the entire array of all names and forms of God that will perhaps point to the fullness that is God. But it is advisable for each individual to concentrate on and have a special place for one particular manifestation or form of God and this would be his ishTa devatA. Even a person who has realised the brahman as the Ultimate Reality that pervades everything, does not reject idol worship. For him all deities are alike. He is not averse to worshipping or meditating on any particular form of the Absolute. This is the reason why we see our advaita AcAryas give as much importance to devatA worship and temple offerings as the non-advaita AcAryas. Every variation of the ishTa devatA worship currently in vogue can be traced to one or other of the six traditions -- namely, the deities incorporated in the pancAyatana pUjA syndrome plus the tradition of worship of God subrahmaNya.

It is this variety that gives richness to Hinduism and it is this possibility, of 'to each according to his need and capacity' that brings together under the one banner of Hinduism people with varying practices, attitudes and states of evolution. In all cases, however, since the permanent residence of God is in one's own heart, every time a Hindu worships outwardly, he creates an idol or a picture for the God of his choice, or the God that suits the occasion, invokes God in that idol or picture from his heart and worships it in all the external forms he likes. This method of pUjA (worship) is recommended to give devotion a concrete focus. Mark that it is God that is worshipped in the form of the idol and not the idol as God. So long as you think it is an idol you have not got it. People who do not believe in God find excuses to find fault with the worship of God through idols and appear to be 'more loyal' than the religious, by propagating the argument that God is formless and so should not be worshipped through idols. God can take any form and so the form of the idol is good enough for us to worship God. It is the Infinite Absolute brahman, the all-knowing all-permanent Soul of our souls that is invoked into the form of the idol that is before us. 'Him the Sun cannot light, nor the moon, nor ther stars, nor lightning, nor what we call fire; through Him all of them shine, and through His expression, everything is expressed':

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

Idol worship means Idol is God and this Idol will help you in the time of need...This is very silly, ofcourse. There is no such thing in Hinduism.

Image or Icon is actually used as an object or medium for concentration.

ServantofTheOne · Oct 28, 2005

what relationship do these 'images' or 'icons' have with god according to Hinduism?

for example ganesh the icon that has the elephant head.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Oct 28, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
Idol worship means Idol is God and this Idol will help you in the time of need...This is very silly, ofcourse. There is no such thing in Hinduism.

Image or Icon is actually used as an object or medium for concentration.

Dont forget to add that it is a strong upholder of faith - we do not really see or perceive God normally. An idol. picture, or such symbolic stuff have great strength in keeping us focussed on God, and remember him all the day. And dont forget about the "milk miracle" - God revealed himself in that event through the idols.

And of course if the bible says it is wrong - it means nothing to Sanatana Dharma adherents. Nothing.

I dont beleive idols are mere symbols of meditation or concentration. Then why is it installed in all temples and also abhishek and aarti performed on it? We do not regard idols as stones - it is the way we choose to institutionalize God and religion. It is one way God is honoured by man, who is otherwise invisible in every way.

arunma · Oct 28, 2005

Well Ironpillar, I agree with you that idol worship is wicked. But most people here already knew that.

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Dont forget to add that it is a strong upholder of faith - we do not really see or perceive God normally. An idol. picture, or such symbolic stuff have great strength in keeping us focussed on God, and remember him all the day. And dont forget about the "milk miracle" - God revealed himself in that event through the idols.

And of course if the bible says it is wrong - it means nothing to Sanatana Dharma adherents. Nothing.

I dont beleive idols are mere symbols of meditation or concentration. Then why is it installed in all temples and also abhishek and aarti performed on it? We do not regard idols as stones - it is the way we choose to institutionalize God and religion. It is one way God is honoured by man, who is otherwise invisible in every way.

Yes, Images are strong upholder, yes, God has shown miracles through Idols as well through other mediums....I too witnessed Milk miracle....but that was not Idol ..neither we offer anything to Idol nor that Idol has shown any Miracle. It was Infinite God who used Idol symbol to show his miracle. Idol worship means worship that Stone and expect something from it. Many Hindu Saints are also against this defination of Idol worship. and we all know this defination has no place in Hinduism. We offer Aarti to Infinite Krishna through that symbol. This symbol helps. It helps a lot to concentrate.

satay · Oct 28, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
Yes, Idols are strong upholder, yes, God has shown miracles through Idols as well through other mediums....I too witnessed milk miracle....but that was not Idol ..neither we offer anything to Idol nor that Idol has shown any miracle. It was infinite God who used Idol symbol to show his miracle. Idol worship means worship that Stone and expect something from it. Many Hindu saints are also against this defeination of Idol worship. and we all know this defination has no place in Hinduism. We offer Aarti to Infinite Krishna through that symbol. This symbol helps. It helps a lot to concentrate.

Then again malecchas on this site will not understand this since they lack the capacity.

satay

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

ServantofTheOne said:
what relationship do these 'images' or 'icons' have with god according to Hinduism?

These Images are according to the description of manifestations in scriptuers.

or example ganesh the icon that has the elephant head.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Oct 28, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
Yes, Idols are strong upholder, yes, God has shown miracles through Idols as well through other mediums....I too witnessed milk miracle....but that was not Idol ..neither we offer anything to Idol nor that Idol has shown any miracle. It was infinite God who used Idol symbol to show his miracle. Idol worship means worship that Stone and expect something from it. Many Hindu saints are also against this defeination of Idol worship. and we all know this defination has no place in Hinduism. We offer Aarti to Infinite Krishna through that symbol. This symbol helps. It helps a lot to concentrate.

Rahul, I think you are mixing Karma kanda and Jnana kanda.

Temples are essentially following Hindu rituals of worship in specific ways. Do you know that different types of idols are worshipped differently, with different materails, different flowers and different rituals? What is such a need if it is just mere symbolic? What do you think of Yantras people wear? You think these are all just symbols?

It is something more than an aid to concentration, which only Hinduism understands. This concentration and stuff are higher spiritual disciplines not applicable to the vast majority of us. And I dont care to explain this with respect to the bible. Nor do I justify these things to people who still beleive in a dictator type of God.

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Rahul, I think you are mixing Karma kanda and Jnana kanda.

Temples are essentially following Hindu rituals of worship in specific ways. Do you know that different types of idols are worshipped differently, with different materails, different flowers and different rituals? What is such a need if it is just mere symbolic? What do you think of Yantras people wear? You think these are all just symbols?

It is something more than an aid to concentration, which only Hinduism understands. This concentration and stuff are higher spiritual disciplines not applicable to the vast majority of us. And I dont care to explain this with respect to the bible. Nor do I justify these things to people who still beleive in a dictator type of God.

No, i am not mixing Yantras with Images. These rituals are offerrings to that particular manefestation who itself is part of Infinite Krishna as described in scriptuers through these symbols.

and i don't care about Bible. There is not even 1 single line in Hindu scriptuers which is calling these images as God or more than a symbol.

Here i am also not mixing sacred holy places like Mahakal in Ujjain or Vaishno devi in Jammu or Sacred Shivlingams etc. with Temple images.

MahaSudarshanChakra · Oct 28, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
No, i am not mixing Yantras with Images. These rituals are offerrings to that particular manefestation who itself is part of Infinite Krishna as described in scriptuers through these symbols.

and i don't care about Bible. There is not even 1 single line in Hindu scriptuers which is calling these images as God or more than a symbol.

Here i am also not mixing sacred holy places like Mahakal in Ujjain or Vaishno devi in Jammu or Sacred Shivlingams etc. with Temple images.

Which scriptures are you referring to here? Probably you may want to read texts such as Pancharatra Agamas, which speak about them?

No one less than an advaitin like Shankaracharya, has spoken about Hindu Karmic rituals based on idols. Medha Dakshinamurty mantra Japa and things like Simha Danam are found in Shanakaracharya's works like Shankaravijayam Nadi.

If the shiv lingam at some holy places like Ujjain can be considered holy, why not the idol you worship at home? We do not think a piece of rock lying on the dirt as holy. But the idol becomes sacred because of specific rituals performed on them.

1. Idols that are installed by a saint are holy for that very reason, the holy touch of the holy saint.
2. Idols that are worshipped by more people become more holy due to the spiritual environment.
3. Idols that are installed in holy places like Gaya or Kashi become holy by the very holy atmosphere present in the area.
4. Idols that are duly performed the sacred rituals prescribed in the shastras are holy.
5. Idols become holy whenever you worship them with devotion.

Can you answer why you would want to install a piece of charcoal in the dustbin in ur puja room? And why you use shiv ling and other forms , install them with devotion, and offer them puja every day?

All these are something more than mere symbolism according to Hindu scripture.

We do not worship anything and everything. A piece of stone is just a piece of stone because God is only dormant in it. But by a combination of many factors, we give holiness and make God active in that idol.

satay · Oct 28, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Which scriptures are you referring to here? Probably you may want to read texts such as Pancharatra Agamas, which speak about them?

No one less than an advaitin like Shankaracharya, has spoken about Hindu Karmic rituals based on idols. Medha Dakshinamurty mantra Japa and things like Simha Danam are found in Shanakaracharya's works like Shankaravijayam Nadi.

If the shiv lingam at some holy places like Ujjain can be considered holy, why not the idol you worship at home? We do not think a piece of rock lying on the dirt as holy. But the idol becomes sacred because of specific rituals performed on them.

1. Idols that are installed by a saint are holy for that very reason, the holy touch of the holy saint.
2. Idols that are worshipped by more people become more holy due to the spiritual environment.
3. Idols that are installed in holy places like Gaya or Kashi become holy by the very holy atmosphere present in the area.
4. Idols that are duly performed the sacred rituals prescribed in the shastras are holy.
5. Idols become holy whenever you worship them with devotion.

Can you answer why you would want to install a piece of charcoal in the dustbin in ur puja room? And why you use shiv ling and other forms , install them with devotion, and offer them puja every day?

All these are something more than mere symbolism according to Hindu scripture.

We do not worship anything and everything. A piece of stone is just a piece of stone because God is only dormant in it. But by a combination of many factors, we give holiness and make God active in that idol.

With all due respect...I think you are BOTH correct at the same time.

Let's move on...

satay

BourbonFromHeaven · Oct 28, 2005

arunma said:
Well Ironpillar, I agree with you that idol worship is wicked. But most people here already knew that.

I agree with you. Idol worship is a no-no. In the words of my new favriot song, from the sound track of, " The Mighty Wind "

It's scary, but it's true
So do what the good book
Do what the good book
Do what the good book tells you too!

MahaSudarshanChakra · Oct 28, 2005

satay said:
With all due respect...I think you are BOTH correct at the same time.

Let's move on...

satay

Yes, Rahul's point is from Jnana Kanda, mine is from Karma Kanda. Karma kanda is the stuff 99% of the Hindus live on....not all of us are Yogis.

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

MahaSudarshanChakra said:
Which scriptures are you referring to here? Probably you may want to read texts such as Pancharatra Agamas, which speak about them?

No one less than an advaitin like Shankaracharya, has spoken about Hindu Karmic rituals based on idols. Medha Dakshinamurty mantra Japa and things like Simha Danam are found in Shanakaracharya's works like Shankaravijayam Nadi.

Did he equate them with Infinite Shiva? Or He defined Idols as Holy symbols?

If the shiv lingam at some holy places like Ujjain can be considered holy, why not the idol you worship at home? We do not think a piece of rock lying on the dirt as holy. But the idol becomes sacred because of specific rituals performed on them.

These are Holy symbols ofcourse but not God. They will break one day. We will replace them with new Symbols. Holy place is more than symbol because of many reasons. God was incarnated in mathura, Shiva lingam of Ujjain is equal to Shiva as per scriptuers. Whereas Temple Shivlingam is just a holy symbol which will be replaced with new symbol sooner or later.

1. Idols that are installed by a saint are holy for that very reason, the holy touch of the holy saint.
2. Idols that are worshipped by more people become more holy due to the spiritual environment.
3. Idols that are installed in holy places like Gaya or Kashi become holy by the very holy atmosphere present in the area.
4. Idols that are duly performed the sacred rituals prescribed in the shastras are holy.
5. Idols become holy whenever you worship them with devotion.

Yeah they are holy symbols because they have represented maifestations of God as described in scriptuers but they are not God. Someday we have to replace them with new.

Can you answer why you would want to install a piece of charcoal in the dustbin in ur puja room? And why you use shiv ling and other forms , install them with devotion, and offer them puja every day?

Because Shivlingam is holy symbol who represents Shiva.

All these are something more than mere symbolism according to Hindu scripture.

i don't agree. I have to see that verse which says this Idol is Krishna and is equal to Krishna rather than Holy Symbol.

We do not worship anything and everything. A piece of stone is just a piece of stone because God is only dormant in it. But by a combination of many factors, we give holiness and make God active in that idol.

God is active even without that symbol. Do you think Krishna will not listen your prayer if this activated holy symbol is missing?

satay · Oct 28, 2005

rahul_sharma said:
Do you think Krishna will not listen your prayer if this activated holy symbol is missing?

Namaste Rahul,
Now you are being silly right?

satay

rahul_sharma · Oct 28, 2005

satay said:
Namaste Rahul,
Now you are being silly right?

satay

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