What is the standard?

MrJim · Sep 4, 2006

ACADEMIC said:
Our task is to deeply understand the Graeco-Roman world so we may faithfully interpret the New Testament for our own larger world and worlds, both which we must also deeply know.

I'm divided on this. It seems that on the one hand the scripture should be self sufficient. It is to be God's Word, and that should be enough. That I would have to be an ancient civilization scholar first to glean truth from the scripture seems...wrong.

On the other hand there is so much division within the church as a whole, within denoms & congregations, that obviously something isn't "kosher". So it does seem that there is a missing key. The Viola books I've been reading point a lot as ancient culture practices as keys to understanding the scripture and the church.

RSTEWART · Sep 5, 2006

If you read these scriptures carefully you will see that these things are not to be done as an adornment (decoration). For example, I wear a coat to stay warm. I wear a wedding band to show that I am married. I wear a watch to tell what time it is. I wear glasses to see where I'm going. One must look carefully at the motive of the heart and not legalize anything.

Remember when Jesus was scolded by the Pharisees because he healed on the Sabbath. Was Jesus not taking God's commandments concerning the Sabbath seriously enough? Jesus took the command seriously but he knew there was a greater command which is "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

I believe what Paul is saying is that we should not make a conscious effort to adorn ourselves in such a way outwardly that would glorify our flesh, but to adorn ourselves inwardly in such a way that the power of God is demonstrated through the fruits of the Spirit and to glorify God.

Danfrey · Sep 5, 2006

RSTEWART said:
If you read these scriptures carefully you will see that these things are not to be done as an adornment (decoration). For example, I wear a coat to stay warm. I wear a wedding band to show that I am married. I wear a watch to tell what time it is. I wear glasses to see where I'm going. One must look carefully at the motive of the heart and not legalize anything.

Remember when Jesus was scolded by the Pharisees because he healed on the Sabbath. Was Jesus not taking God's commandments concerning the Sabbath seriously enough? Jesus took the command seriously but he knew there was a greater command which is "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

I believe what Paul is saying is that we should not make a conscious effort to adorn ourselves in such a way outwardly that would glorify our flesh, but to adorn ourselves inwardly in such a way that the power of God is demonstrated through the fruits of the Spirit and to glorify God.

I appreciate what you are saying here. The adornment is the issue of these scriptures. When it comes to the wedding band, I would see that as adornment. I would also see a tie as adornment which totally goes against what our culture would like us to believe.

It has become far to common to see Christians wearing makeup, jewelry, and fancy clothing. When was the last time anyone heard a sermon preached on adornment? We like to keep discussions at a level that doesn't actually affect our daily lives.

ACADEMIC · Sep 6, 2006

I have thought over the past two days about how to best respond again to this thread - to respond wisely, peaceably, and in hopefully the most advantageous and productive manner for regulars as well as visitors here.

I think it would be very advantageous to continue the discussion, illustrative of issues and principles already raised, on a more "removed" matter for now.

Most have read this Scripture before:

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven (James 5:14-15).

In your experience and tradition, how has this passage been practiced? Maybe describe a specific scenario, to illustrate.

Jehane · Sep 6, 2006

In our church whoever is leading will ask if anyone needs prayer to come forward at the close of the service. Occassionaly people will ask for prayer prior to the service & then people who feel led to pray will be asked to come forward. We are a very small congregation & don't make much distinction between the ordained & laity. Oil is used but nothing is very ritualised & it is kept simple. We have several intercessory prayer warriors & most of us prefer to pray the scriptures unless otherwise directed. Is this the sort of illustration you wanted?

ACADEMIC · Sep 6, 2006

Jehane said:
In our church whoever is leading will ask if anyone needs prayer to come forward at the close of the service. Occassionaly people will ask for prayer prior to the service & then people who feel led to pray will be asked to come forward. We are a very small congregation & don't make much distinction between the ordained & laity. Oil is used but nothing is very ritualised & it is kept simple. We have several intercessory prayer warriors & most of us prefer to pray the scriptures unless otherwise directed. Is this the sort of illustration you wanted?

Your fellowship sounds like it'd be very interesting to visit.

Your description is great. BTW, how is the oil used, and for what purpose(s), and what kind of oil?

-----------------------------------

Jehane · Sep 6, 2006

It's ordinary olive oil & is usually, but not always, used to make the sign of the cross on the person being prayed for's forehead. I must say I've never thought to query the oils use:we're told to do it & I assumed it was symbolic both of the old testament promises, the active presence of the Holy Spirit & his sealing us until the day of the Lord. Mind you this may not be the intention of anybody else present. I am highly visual & a writer by inclination so tend to think in symbolic fashion.

MadFingerPainter · Sep 6, 2006

Danfrey said:
I find the wedding ring discussion interesting. There are some perspectives that have not crossed my mind before. Candice and I stopped wearing them when we started following Christ as we accepted Paul's teaching literally and universally. I would consider this much different than an issue such as what style of coat,or what color of shirt one must wear to Church. I haven't had too many issues with women trying to pick up on me, but this hasn't been much of an issue for me in the past either I guess a lack of hair and a few extra pounds does the trick as well.

i guess for me i don't feel that a simple gold band to symbolize the union of two people is costly array. i think it is necessary to communicate to others that you are married & off limits. i don't think it is fair to go around without a wedding ring & misleading others into thinking that you are not spoken for. the reason being is that many do not wear a wedding ring so that they can choose to sin by not being honest with others. i too would be upset if my spouse wouldn't wear his ring & send the message to others that he is not to be touched. he already has a partner. i would never want to dishonor my own spouse by not letting the world know through this simple symbol that i am not available. in other countries they use dots on their foreheads of different colors to let others know they are in a union already. so for me a wedding band is basically the same thing. i do object however to diamonds. i think they are simply too much. but it depends on the extravagance. i have a 25-30 yr. old anniversary ring that belonged to my grandmother. it has a few diamond flakes in it but it is very simple and very beautiful. if it were a one carat diamond though...you wouldn't catch me wearing it. ~lol~

RSTEWART · Sep 6, 2006

Danfrey said:
I appreciate what you are saying here. The adornment is the issue of these scriptures. When it comes to the wedding band, I would see that as adornment. I would also see a tie as adornment which totally goes against what our culture would like us to believe.

It has become far to common to see Christians wearing makeup, jewelry, and fancy clothing. When was the last time anyone heard a sermon preached on adornment? We like to keep discussions at a level that doesn't actually affect our daily lives.

I also appreciate your thoughts. Modesty is something that needs to be emphasized, but it must come from the inside out.

There are many religions that pressure or even force their followers wear certain clothes, observe certain days, etc. but secretly many of those people wish they did not have to follow such ordinances. God wants people to live in freedom and to follow his word from their hearts and in response to our love for him.

MrJim · Sep 6, 2006

RE: Oil anoitment

I mostly saw it done in the mennonite church. Someone that was sick would be anoited with (I believe) olive oil either during the service (if they were there) or in the home. The elders (and others) would gather around the sick and pray for the person.

I would be done usually at the request of someone, though as I understand it sometimes the pastor or elder would ask if they would like to be anointed.

What is the standard?

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