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I believe that Athanasias' point was that they have been tested. (And my point was that they have been tested but the testing didn't prove anything about the Roman Catholic Church; saying that it did so was just a leap of faith on his part.)Matt 24 and Rev 13 (and 2Thess 2) says that the devil will be performing all sorts of signs and wonders as an Angel of light and his servants as Apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11.
So should we "test the spirits" 1 John 4... or just assume that they are all telling the truth?
I believe that Athanasias' point was that they have been tested. (And my point was that they have been tested but the testing didn't prove anything about the Roman Catholic Church; saying that it did so was just a leap of faith on his part.)
thats fine this is not a debate i do not need to prove anything. i just present the evidence which i and many find powerful.The clarification is worthwhile, but you haven't proven that point in the least. At the most, what you've "proven" would be that some of the miracles are genuine, that's all.
maybe. I think we all play the Thomas game from time to time so God allows us to see his Truth as a mercy to our weakness and to strengthen our faith in Him. as he did Thomas.Thomas needed physical proof that Jesus Christ was risen from the dead; many others did not, but believed on faith. Might it be that Catholics need more physical proof than the Churches which hold to the Solas?
I guess that's why you've already posted 29 replies to your own OP--because it's "not a debate" and you "do not need to prove anything."thats fine this is not a debate i do not need to prove anything.
Sure I have said before we hold to the fact that God can and does give grace and healings to protestants and even sometimes exorcisms(as we can also say he does the same for other non Christian groups like Mormons who ask for these things out of good will in his name). As to the other question Well yes and no. Sometimes you have to be at least open to certain ones like healing. Even the Gospels show Jesus could not do miracles in some places because of the lack of faith in the community. But many of the miracles such as the Eucharistic ones no one expected and came out of doubt so the Church had to test and confirm them.Miracles (or claimed miracles) tend to occur among people who expect them. There would be no reason that Protestants would see eucharistic miracles since we don't claim the same thing about the eucharist. However healing miracles and exorcisms do occur among Protestants, at least those Protestants that expect them. All groups claim that their miracles have been carefully validated.
Sure I have said before we hold to the fact that God can and does give grace and healings to protestants and even sometimes exorcisms(as we can also say he does the same for other non Christian groups like Mormons who ask for these things out of good will in his name). As to the other question Well yes and no. Sometimes you have to be at least open to certain ones like healing. Even the Gospels show Jesus could not do miracles in some places because of the lack of faith in the community. But many of the miracles such as the Eucharistic ones no one expected and came out of doubt so the Church had to test and confirm them.
What you have to at least admit to is these doctrinal miracles happen in the Catholic Church. Now God is not a relativist and would do "doctrinal" miracles for just anyone who believed it so. There is only one truth he died and rose for and the early Christians died for. Either for example the Eucharist is truly the body and blood soul and divinity of Christ supernaturally or its not. Either Mary is Immaculately Conceived and purgatory exist or its all a malicious lie from many. Either all these are real and God is talking and we need to listen or the Catholic Church and every single scientist and witness to these miracles are liars and evil and make a mockery out of God and his word. And if that is the case the Catholic Church needs to be condemend at idolatrous and evil, the most evil Church on the planet disguiseing itself at length as Gods Church with miracles tested bv outside science to show credibility of the witnesses. This is just no middle ground when it comes to this. Either we are being evil and deceptive(and thats alot of deception from alot of witnesses) or its real and we all ought to conform our lives to this truth.
Those aren't actually the only options. I mentioned this earlier, and Hendrick alluded to it - people see the miracles they expect. Their understanding of reality can shape their perception. In some cases we know that even very objective miraculous experiences can be psychological in origin.
There are a great many questions that you haven't answered that don't seem to fit in well with your claims here.
Why is it the Eastern Church, which you believe has a valid Eucharist and which also believes in the Real presence, does not have these kinds of miracles?
Why is it that these fleshly miracles seem to go against some of the more important theological explanations of transubstantiation?
Why is it these kinds of miracles became common in a particular time and place in the Church? Why does that seem to correspond to such a degree to a time of people being extremely focused on miracles and special personal revelations, things that eastern Christians would consider probable examples of prelest.
How healthy is this focus on miracles been in those for whom it is important?
Why is it that not only in other denominations, but other religions, the miracles always seem to confirm the view of reality the group already has? Why is it you think that is only significant in Catholicism?
I've always found miracles and the stories of miracles to be incredibly fascinating. I think it is a sad that (many) Christians discount miracles or even the possibility of miracles. That said, it is quite important that we try to be skeptical when evaluating events claimed as miracles. I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas by any means, just saying that Christianity and Christians are best served by evaluating events deemed miracles by all necessary and available means, less we look like superstitious fools to the secular world if the "miracle" turns out to be a simple fraud.
All of that out of the way, I think that miracles have happened, do happen, and currently happen. That being said, I think we must be aware that sometimes well-meaning folks will forge or fake a miracle in order to bring people into the faith or to bring those closer to the faith. If one believes that one's immortal soul is in danger, then we shouldn't be surprised if a person believes that faking a miracle is ultimately for a good cause. Secondly, especially during medieval times, it was of value to parishes (and others) to have relic or to have had a miracle happen in order to bring in pilgrims, who brought money with them. Relics and miracles were a very lucrative business during the medieval age.
That being said, I'm certainly not discounting any of the miracles discussed in this thread, just trying to shed light on why we must be skeptical. However, I've always found the Shroud of Turin to be the most fascinating relic and miracle, one that has yet to be dismissed as a fraud, despite the best efforts of science.
The RCC "tests" to see if the supernatural event is ... supernatural or not.
Notice that in Matt 4 Christ does not test the devil to see if his work is supernatural or not. Rather he tests the statements of satan against Bible doctrine.
From what I can tell, the average Christian, regardless of denomination, is far from discounting miracles. They do indeed believe people with incurable diseases have been cured, that prayer brought about events that couldn't be explained otherwise, and so on. What they don't believe are these vaudeville-type shows such as Lourdes and Fatima are supposed to be, in which next to nothing that could be considered miraculous happened except for the show.
You mean among the religiously very liberal or modernist types? I suppose that can be said, but I still think that the average Christian, regardless of denomination, believes in miracles (although not the sensationalist "pilgrimage to where the Madonna made flowers bloom in the snow" type).I was thinking along the lines of the mainline, where miracles are often discounted, including many biblical ones.
You mean among the religiously very liberal or modernist types? I suppose that can be said, but I still think that the average Christian, regardless of denomination, believes in miracles (although not the sensationalist "pilgrimage to where the Madonna made flowers bloom in the snow" type).
I wouldn't disagree, that is why I said "many" in my post and not "all" or the "average."
Good Point. In fact in the video on Eucharistic miracles I posted(which alot of people did not watch I guess) a Bishop is interviewed and says exactly that and then describes the other conditions the Church does for these. Truly the most "skeptical" of these studies on the miracles comes from the Church. That is why she test them for so long usually(the last miracle declared official in Lourdes was declared in 2013 but had been studied since 1989). That is also why Lourdes has had only 69 official declared miracles by the Church but thousands of unofficial ones signed off by doctors.I've always found miracles and the stories of miracles to be incredibly fascinating. I think it is a sad that (many) Christians discount miracles or even the possibility of miracles. That said, it is quite important that we try to be skeptical when evaluating events claimed as miracles. I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas by any means, just saying that Christianity and Christians are best served by evaluating events deemed miracles by all necessary and available means, less we look like superstitious fools to the secular world if the "miracle" turns out to be a simple fraud.
All of that out of the way, I think that miracles have happened, do happen, and currently happen. That being said, I think we must be aware that sometimes well-meaning folks will forge or fake a miracle in order to bring people into the faith or to bring those closer to the faith. If one believes that one's immortal soul is in danger, then we shouldn't be surprised if a person believes that faking a miracle is ultimately for a good cause. Secondly, especially during medieval times, it was of value to parishes (and others) to have relic or to have had a miracle happen in order to bring in pilgrims, who brought money with them. Relics and miracles were a very lucrative business during the medieval age.
That being said, I'm certainly not discounting any of the miracles discussed in this thread, just trying to shed light on why we must be skeptical. However, I've always found the Shroud of Turin to be the most fascinating relic and miracle, one that has yet to be dismissed as a fraud, despite the best efforts of science.
That is very sad but very very true!Very often when creation is discounted and the Bible called "myth" then you will find that the miracles in the Bible, the creation account, almost everything but the virgin birth is also being discounted.
Bob
Instead of assuming, let each one speak for oneself. One falsehood of organized groups is how ones can try to glump all members into one category and speak for all of them. Discover, by getting to know someone.I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice.
I am not a legal witness to if any of them really happened. But I know people can fake things. And people can be wishful, to believe what tells them they are right. Look at how people can fool themselves, about who they marry, just as an indicator of how human nature can readily have us fooling ourselves.In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's.
If someone talking with me makes these claims, I might look the person in the eye and be quiet and listen for the "therefore". If they say therefore something that the Bible says, fine. If they say therefore something that I find is not Biblical, not fine.So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do).
If you are assuming that converting to Christ means or includes worshiping the Roman Catholic "Eucharist", I can't assure you that the person has converted to the real Jesus > 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 shows that there are false Jesus Christs.But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ.
Satanists are deceived. Even if ones of them believe they can capture and kidnap Jesus from a Roman Catholic tabernacle, I would not build your faith on what a Satanic person is capable of thinking.What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real.
I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these.
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