what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

Protoevangel · Jan 9, 2008

vle045 said:
there is no point in my retuning here. you all have formed a bad opinion of me anyways, even though you don't know me.

It was nice in the beginning...

I'm sorry you are going away in a huff over this. You obviously believe very strongly in abortion rights. Your increasingly volatile, illogical and non sequitur arguments demonstrate that fact clearly. I hope you will grow to look beyond the politics, and recognize the anti-Christian heinous evil of the abortion industry; disposable children, murdered for convenience and "choice".

If you ever get over your self-exile, I'm sure you will be very welcome back here. I have found the conservative Lutherans to be extremely welcoming to everybody. But I have also found them to be quite ready to defend their doctrine, and Christian values, when they are questioned or denied.

Tofferer · Jan 9, 2008

Does it not say in the Bible "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you"? Know that vle is gone (though hopefully not for long), but I am curious. If I have misquoted scripture, then that is my shame. Such being the case, I don't see how a Christian can justify being "pro-choice" when is it just a euphenism for being "pro-murder"? Even some of the more honest people I know who profess atheism see an unborn child as a living person. This is indeed sad....

WildStrawberry · Jan 10, 2008

vle045 said:
there is no point in my retuning here. you all have formed a bad opinion of me anyways, even though you don't know me.

It was nice in the beginning...

See, this is what I dislike about debating on the internet. Basically what you're saying is "hey, I can't make a clear and concise argument that's based in facts rather than party/group rhetoric so I'm going to take my toys and go home."

You're also doing what you're accusing us of doing, making a judgment call about our inner feeling/positions rather than actually reading the facts that we've stated and answering the questions that have been put forth to you.

I'd much rather you came back armed with FACTS than for you to go away thinking that we have "bad opinions of [you]". I've followed your posts in other threads and I can honestly say I've not seen anyone show any "bad opinions of [you]". Toward your arguments, toward the way you've "debated" here, sure. But to you personally? I think it's rather unfair of you to say something like this since everyone here has been nothing but cordial to you with exception to this thread. You can't expect to come into a CONSERVATIVE forum and expect that your very very LIBERAL beliefs are going to get a warm welcome. And it's also unfair of you to get mad at us for defending our views and positions. Check out the Constitution...we're ALL granted free speech.

Kae

vle045 · Jan 10, 2008

For the umpteeth time - - I was NOT talking about abortion itself, but about judging others based on that one fact of being pro-choice and calling them UnChristian.

So all the rhetoric about abortion was completely irrelevant. And I tried to explain that I was not arguing that point, but offering the other perspective.

Read the first sentence on my first post on the subject... it started out something to the effect of... to play devil's advocate.... Not meaning the literal "devil" ... but using it in the way where we put on the other hat to see their perspective...

I was calling out the part about judging others....

My references about judging others... (I came back so that I could provide those, since someone asked.)

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Luke 6:36-38 (New International Version)

36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

James 4:11-15 (New International Version)

11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But youwho are you to judge your neighbor?

I am sure someone is going to want to go back to making this about whether abortion is right or wrong again because people can not see beyond that word. I don't believe I EVER said it was right or wrong... just that it is ugly on both sides and no one has proposed a solution that solves both sides. And if someone did have a better solution, I'd be all for it.

I can not agree with a blanket statement that someone is not Christian based on being pro-choice (or even an adulterer, theif, fornicator, or any other sinful behaviour). Sure the sin is not a good thing but we shouldn't say "You sinned", now turn in your Christian membership card...." Even with things that we know we continually struggle with and try to reconcile...

I am not talking about liberal vs. conservative, or telling anyone to change their personal views on abortion. Get that out of your head.

I really really do not want to fight with anyone about abortion. I hate the topic because there is no winner on either side. Both sides have good points and bad points. Both sides lose no matter what. There's no winners. Either way people get hurt. It's ugly sticky yucky and very unfortunate.

If we could control the actions of the world and have everyone be happy, that would be hunky dory. But there are atheists and prostitues and rapists and adulterers and people who just don't care about anyone but themselves. It's not good. It's not right. I don't like it... but that's the way it is.

So to those people, God's Law and right and wrong and "keeping your pants on" are just not solutions. And the government can not make people be Christian, or abstain from sex, or any of those other perfect world solutions. (Notice I didn't say they were right or wrong? I suggest it as an explanation of how it can be looked upon when a person chooses to make a pro-choice stand. They often look at it as a question of how much control should the government have rather than the act itself.)

Again, I only offer it as how a Christian person can look at it and arrive at the decision to be pro-choice and at the same time be Christian. I am not arguing for it. I am not defending it. Just that it is possible for a Christian person to arrive at a certain conclusion.

Be pro-Life. Be conservative. That is certainly your right to do so.

And even though I have a comical version in my signature, I do find the Serenity Prayer applicable to life in general.

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+3]The Serenity Prayer[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]God grant me the serenity [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]to accept the things I cannot change; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]courage to change the things I can;[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]and wisdom to know the difference. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Living one day at a time; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Enjoying one moment at a time; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Taking, as He did, this sinful world[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]as it is, not as I would have it; [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Trusting that He will make all things right[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]if I surrender to His Will;[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]That I may be reasonably happy in this life [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]and supremely happy with Him[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Forever in the next.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Amen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]--Reinhold Niebuhr[/FONT]

I hope I have answered the various questions and accusations...

I did not say it was what I believed. I said it was what a pro-choice Christian believes.

I didn't say I agreed with it. I questioned the practice judging someone as non Christian... for any reason.

My "HUFF" is that it seems like everyone is not able to see past the word abortion and understand that the entire time I am talking about judging others as non-Christian. Insert any other sin in place of abortion and I'd have the same argument.

My position is not about abortion. It is about judging others.

I'll say it again in case it is still not clear... my point is that we should not judge others.

I am not judging your position of being pro-life. I am not questioning God's Law. I am not saying that abortion is ok.

I did throw on the pro-choice hat to really consider how a Christian could go through a thought process and arrive at a pro-choice answer. I can understand it.

Since there is not a perfect solution to satisfy ALL citizens in the USA, we have two losing sides and people are forced to pick one. It divides us as a country, it divides us as Christians, it divides our denominations and parishes across the world.

And judging someone as not Christian does nothing to help the cause. It won't stop abortions, it won't bring people closer to God, it won't impact anyone to change their views. What it will do is it will split us further. It will chase people out of the Church who might otherwise have been able to thrive and grow closer to God and gain more understanding. It will spilt us further into more denominations, branches, synods, atheists and more.

Do you understand yet what I was getting at? Am I that poor of a communicator?

Do you understand yet that I never said you were wrong about abortion? Do you understand yet that my issue is with judging someone as not Christian? I see that as being harmful to them, particularly if they know that you say that. It can make them angry, bitter, and chase them away. Why would they want to come in to fellowship with people who are judinging them?

If you embrace them as your fellow Christian, and lead by example, perhaps they will reach the same understanding that you have at a point that is comfortable for them. Perhaps not. We never know.

I don't know, perhaps I am just wrong about everything. Does that make me un-Christian???

Protoevangel · Jan 10, 2008

I wonder what it is called when someone picks which verses they are going to believe, and which they are going to ignore?

1 Corinthians 5:9-13 NKJV said:
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

DaRev · Jan 10, 2008

And what we are saying is that if someone claims to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and love their neighbor as themselves, yet believes and supports the slaughter of innocent human lives (something that the Scriptures clearly state is an abomination to God) does need to be confronted with the genuiness of their faith. It's a contradiction of terms. We, as Christians, are indeed called to confront our erring brothers and sisters.

Matthew 18:15-17, "And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer."

Ephesians 5:11 "And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them."

I will stand by my earlier statement. I do not understand how a Christian can be pro-choice.

Protoevangel · Jan 10, 2008

vle said:
I can not agree with a blanket statement that someone is not Christian based on being pro-choice (or even an adulterer, theif, fornicator, or any other sinful behaviour). Sure the sin is not a good thing but we shouldn't say "You sinned", now turn in your Christian membership card...." Even with things that we know we continually struggle with and try to reconcile...

If someone claims adultery is ok, that stealing is ok, that fornicating is ok, or that any other sinful behavior is ok, then yes, I would question whether they were truly Christian, or a wolf in sheeps clothing.

On the other hand, anyone can fall into sin, whether that be abortion, adultery, theft, fornication, etc. That's why we have repentance, confession and absolution.

Please try to understand the difference between falling into sin, vs. teaching that sin is not sin. Until you learn that difference, you will have a real hard time understanding the conversations in here.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 10, 2008

Vle, for me it was never a question as to whether you supported abortion or not. You'll recall that I actually asked if you were pro-choice.

For me, it was that you were saying we couldn't and shouldn't judge, when the bible clearly says that we SHOULD and COULD judge, when the actions that one is submitting are not Christian actions. Being pro-choice is not a Christian action. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Just like being pro-adultery or being pro-thievery. People would scoff if someone called themselves pro-adultery, but it's the same principle.

It's not that you are a bad communicator. It's the point you are trying to communicate is going to be lost on conservative, moral Christians who cannot fathom a pro-choice stance.

seajoy · Jan 10, 2008

Along the lines of what Proto is saying....if a woman has an abortion, and later is sorry for it, and asks for forgiveness from God, that forgiveness is of course granted.

But teaching that abortion is ok, just because a person cares only for their own wants or needs, and totally ignores Scripture, IS living a life of continuous sin and denial of such as being a sin.

It would be sinful for us as Christians not to point this out to that person. Literally sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring it, is not Christian-like behavior.

Also, I know a woman who was engaged, and was raped by another man. Her fiance still married her, and raised the beautiful boy as his very own. I know of another highschool aged girl who was raped, and became pregnant...she and her family have brought up this child in the Christian faith. God can, and does, work in even these most horrible conditions. His power is beyond our comprehention.

Jim47 · Jan 10, 2008

vle045 said:
vle045 said:

I really really do not want to fight with anyone about abortion. I hate the topic because there is no winner on either side. Both sides have good points and bad points. Both sides lose no matter what. There's no winners. Either way people get hurt. It's ugly sticky yucky and very unfortunate.

Click to expand...

There is a always a winner when someone comes to repentance, whether this be before the abortion or after it.

Lk 15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

If we could control the actions of the world and have everyone be happy, that would be hunky dory. But there are atheists and prostitues and rapists and adulterers and people who just don't care about anyone but themselves. It's not good. It's not right. I don't like it... but that's the way it is.

Click to expand...

You're right, we can't control the actions of this world, but we as Christians don't live our lives for earthly pleasures and to see what we can get out of this life. The people who seek only the pleasures of this life will miss out on the life we have been promised in heaven.

1Pe 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
1Pe 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each mans work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

So to those people, God's Law and right and wrong and "keeping your pants on" are just not solutions. And the government can not make people be Christian, or abstain from sex, or any of those other perfect world solutions. (Notice I didn't say they were right or wrong?

Click to expand...

Turning from sin and turning to God is the only solution. Those who do not will only find more sorrow in this life and endless eternal sorrows in the life to come. Our lives here are but brief. Living them in shameless sin and selfish pleasure will reap no rewards except instant gratification. God has witnessed to these people by givng them sexualy transmitted diseases so as to turn them away from this life of sin. Some have listened, many have not.

Jn 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:
"Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Again, I only offer it as how a Christian person can look at it and arrive at the decision to be pro-choice and at the same time be Christian. I am not arguing for it. I am not defending it. Just that it is possible for a Christian person to arrive at a certain conclusion.

Click to expand...

Anyone who choses to have an abortion has not listened to God, but instead has listened to Satan and have become decieved. Satan will always help us to justify our sinful desires, we have to look no further then him.

But God wants us to live holy and chaste lives, not lives of sin and shame and selfish pleasures.

1Co 6:12 "Everything is permissible for me"but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

My "HUFF" is that it seems like everyone is not able to see past the word abortion and understand that the entire time I am talking about judging others as non-Christian. Insert any other sin in place of abortion and I'd have the same argument.

My position is not about abortion. It is about judging others.

I'll say it again in case it is still not clear... my point is that we should not judge others.

I am not judging your position of being pro-life. I am not questioning God's Law. I am not saying that abortion is ok.

Click to expand...

We've already shown you many scriptures where we are to witness to those who chose a life of sin. This means we have the responcibilty to tell them its wrong and leading them away from God, and His saving grace.

Jas 5:19 My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Since there is not a perfect solution to satisfy ALL citizens in the USA, we have two losing sides and people are forced to pick one. It divides us as a country, it divides us as Christians, it divides our denominations and parishes across the world.

Click to expand...

There is a perfect solution, and only one, to turn from sin and to seek God's grace, to leave a life in sin and to strive everyday to live a life worthy of the great calling we have recieved.

rockytrails · Jan 20, 2008

PreachersWife2004 said:
A month ago I got involved in a thread about Santa Claus that was waaaaay over the top. I was told that my husband and I lacked discernment - oh wait, that was the halloween thread. No, in the Santa Claus thread I was told that I was a liar for letting my children believe in Santa, I was told that I was doing my children no favors by letting them think anything good of SATAN (the anagram of Santa).

So I totally hear what you're saying.

I did not know that any lutheran pastors taught their kids the santa myths as truth.
Rather than blame you for it i would rather ask why?

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 21, 2008

That's because we don't teach the myth as truth. We don't teach myth at all. We just like to have a little bit of fun with Santa. My oldest has known there was no such thing as Santa for as long as he can remember. He still gets one present from Santa, though, for fun. He also gets a present from the dog, one from the cat and one from the fishes.

The issue with Santa Claus is when families put the focus on the wrong person.

DaRev · Jan 21, 2008

The best way to teach about Santa Claus is to teach kids who St. Nicholas was and what he did.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 21, 2008

DaRev said:
The best way to teach about Santa Claus is to teach kids who St. Nicholas was and what he did.

Precisely.

Protoevangel · Jan 21, 2008

Speaking of that, have y'all heard about the movie Nicholas of Myra? It's about the real Saint Nicholas. It is supposed to be released around Christmas.

www.nicholasofmyra-movie.com/

what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

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