what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

MarkRohfrietsch · Jan 7, 2008

Personally, I do not believe that a person can be a Politician and a Christian at the same time. You can not serve two masters; impossible in politics unless you don't want to be there for long.

Lawyers are similar; one whom I know worked for years as a criminal defense lawyer, now he is a Crown Attorney (like a D. A.). Claimed to be a Christian, yet admitted to defending (and often winning) for defendants he knew were guilty because it was his job. His job is still to win, often using rhetoric and emotion on juries.

I find it hard to have respect for either of these professions, yet it is our original sin necessitates them. We need someone to make laws, and people to enforce them. It's the same sinful nature that makes them both want to win at any cost.

Mark

maylor · Jan 7, 2008

Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (mercy killing).

Protoevangel · Jan 7, 2008

vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.

DaRev · Jan 7, 2008

maylor said:
Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (mercy killing).

The LCMS agrees with this.

mrshoperose · Jan 7, 2008

maylor said:
Well, different churches views of abortion is something that divides and gets in the way of "deeper fellowship".

From the WELS This We Believe, (I can't see myself having fellowship with a church that has a stand contrary to this):

We believe, for example, that the Fifth Commandment teaches that all human life is a gift from God. This commandment speaks against abortion, suicide, and euthanasia (mercy killing).

Does that include the death sentence?

maylor · Jan 7, 2008

MarkRohfrietsch,

I know what you mean about lawyers. I sat as a juror on a child molestation case, the defendant was guilty. Every time I looked at the defense attorney, I thought to myself "you better quit your job and repent or your goin' to hell..." He even cried during his closing remarks to try and win over our sympathy for the creep defendant!

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Personally, I do not believe that a person can be a Politician and a Christian at the same time. You can not serve two masters; impossible in politics unless you don't want to be there for long.

Lawyers are similar; one whom I know worked for years as a criminal defense lawyer, now he is a Crown Attorney (like a D. A.). Claimed to be a Christian, yet admitted to defending (and often winning) for defendants he knew were guilty because it was his job. His job is still to win, often using rhetoric and emotion on juries.

I find it hard to have respect for either of these professions, yet it is our original sin necessitates them. We need someone to make laws, and people to enforce them. It's the same sinful nature that makes them both want to win at any cost.

Mark

maylor · Jan 7, 2008

mrshoperose said:
Does that include the death sentence?

I don't know the WELS position on the Death Penalty. I'm thinkin' they they don't have one.

Tofferer · Jan 7, 2008

Faith and politics go together no matter how you try to deny it. The simple fact is that you will vote based upon what you believe.

As for abortion, it really is a form of pre-meditated murder. There are no two ways around this one. Human life is just that, human life. Doesn't matter if the unborn was just conceived five minutes ago or is five days from birth, they are a living human being.

As for the death penalty, that is a different issue altogether. Generally the death penalty is only issued in those instances in which a given offender is considered likely to kill again. Likewise, it is generally considered as a last resort, when all other options have been exhausted. Of course I am also well aware that the Bible prescribes the death penalty when a man takes the life of another man (have we become too lenient in that regard?)

Jim47 · Jan 7, 2008

mrshoperose said:
Does that include the death sentence?

No, God gives government the right to take life from law breakers and administer justice.

Ro 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Ro 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Ro 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

porterross · Jan 7, 2008

At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again.

PreachersWife2004 · Jan 7, 2008

porterross said:
At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again.

Although I agree with the death penalty, I also agree with you here. I guess it's partly why I'm glad I live in a state that does not allow the death penalty.

The reason we can believe in the death penalty is because the death penalty takes the life away from someone who has already taken a life needlessly.

Here is part of the WELS stance on the death penalty:

The government's authority to dispense the death penalty is predicated on justice. We are introduced to the prospect of capital punishment in Genesis 9:6. There the especially grievous act of taking a human life is penalized by the forfeiture of the life of the murderer. Yet, so concerned was God for the unjust taking of human life, even by the governing authorities, that He established "cities of refuge" (see Joshua 21) for those who erroneously caused a death.

Jim47 · Jan 7, 2008

porterross said:
At the same time, unless a convicted murderer is proven guilty without a shadow of doubt or with a solid, undeniable confession, I have hard time stomaching that innocent people have been executed by the authorities and that it might likely happen again.

I agree whole heartedly. We talked about this in bible class a bit tonight. The whole problem is we live in a sinful world where even the lawyers and prosecution will distort or withhold truth. But still there are cases where its quite clear that they are guity.

I just don't understand how people can committ violant crimes against little children, to me those are the worst, but thats probably my perspective from sinful flesh.

vle045 · Jan 7, 2008

Protoevangel said:
vle045,

OK, what if someone personally believed it was wrong to kill children until the children reach adulthood, but "will allow others to make their own decisions and let their own conscience be their guide"?

They would never do it themselves, they would never suggest that others do it themselves.

Would you then question whether that person were really Christian as they claimed?

Just curious.

Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.

vle045 · Jan 7, 2008

PreachersWife2004 said:
First of all, it would be very hard to misunderstand this last sentence. You wouldn't call someone less Christian for not being pro-life. I'd call someone totally NOT Christian for not being pro-life.

Abortion is wrong. There is no gray area in the matter. God's word tells us this, not personal experiences.

I choose to trust in God rather than myself.

And, I've derailed this thread quite a bit already.

Again, you misunderstand me. I NEVER said whether it was right or wrong or what the Bible said or any of that. But I also acknowlege that people view this in so many different ways. A pro-choice person simply feels that it is not their place to impose their beliefs on to an entire country. There are far too many variables out there. And there will be people that do it no matter what. Legal or not. A pro-choice person does not necessarily think it is right.

It's more similar to the idea of gun control. If we make it illegal to carry guns no matter what, it's not going to stop criminals finding a way to get them and use them to murder people.

A pro-choice stance is not about saying abortion is right or wrong. It's more of a political stance. A person who is pro-choice is thinking more along the lines of allowing there to be some sort of care involved.

And before anyone goes on a personal attack or anything... notice that I NEVER said that it was right or wrong. I never refuted anything. I simply said that someone who is pro-choice is not always pro-abortion. They are two different things. And I don't think it makes someone NOT CHRISTIAN to be pro-choice. And if it is truly something that God wants to change in that person, it will come in time in their own faith journey. A Christian person does not ever have all the answers nor are they ever right about everything. And I don't think it is fair to say that someone is NOT CHRISTIAN because they don't see all the things that you see.

I am NOT arguing about abortion. I am just arguing about calling someone less Christian.

DaRev · Jan 7, 2008

I'm not directing this comment at anyone in particular...

The problem, though, is that pro-choice IS most certainly pro-abortion. Plain and simple. For someone to say that they are pro-choice but anti-abortion is a contradiction of terms. That's akin to saying "I'm against the murder of innocent children but I agree that women should have the right to murder innocent children." It's hypocritical.

vle045 · Jan 7, 2008

DaRev said:
I'm not directing this comment at anyone in particular...

The problem, though, is that pro-choice IS most certainly pro-abortion. Plain and simple. For someone to say that they are pro-choice but anti-abortion is a contradiction of terms. That's akin to saying "I'm against the murder of innocent children but I agree that women should have the right to murder innocent children." It's hypocritical.

Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.

porterross · Jan 7, 2008

It's simple. If you don't want to be a parent, don't have sex. That "choice" is easily exercised, but too often ignored.

DaRev · Jan 7, 2008

vle045 said:
Regardless, it doesn't make someone NOT CHRISTIAN. A Christian person is a believer in Christ. Period. Where they are in that journey and their understandings of the teachings does not alter whether they are Christian. A Christian is a believer in Christ. Simple. There's no degrees or levels or good, better, best.

I am not talking about whether abortion is right or wrong, I am talking about judinging someone's Christianity.

I guess I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was NEVER trying to debate abortion.

And all I'm saying is that I don't know how a Christian can be pro-choice.

vle045 · Jan 7, 2008

DaRev said:
And all I'm saying is that I don't know how a Christian can be pro-choice.

I don't know, but there are plenty.

And some people (Catholics mainly) might say that it's not Christian to be Protestant.

Look, I'm not trying to disagree here. I'm just trying to say that we can not judge what is in someone's heart nor whether they are Christian.

seajoy · Jan 7, 2008

vle045 said:
Now you are just being silly. It's not the same thing.

Dan is never silly about something so serious.

what is that they are promoting deeper fellow junk?

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