What is salvation?

Marvin Knox · Jul 14, 2016

Gabriel Anton said:
Peace be with you.
You guys do know in order for God to forgive you of your sins, you have to enter into a covenant with Him, right?
Covenant means you scratch my back, I scratch your back. Not God scratch my back, I believe I scratch His back.

The Son of God entered into a covenant with the Father before the foundation of the world.

That covenant was ratified in His life here on earth as the Son of man.

All the mutual "back scratching" occurred between the Father and Son already.

As a result the Son is seated at the right hand of glory (and, incidentally, I'm seated right there with Him as His bride and part of His body).

My life is hidden with Christ and I am in covenant with the Father through my Savior - the Last Adam.

Gabriel Anton said:
Grace sounds so feel good and sweet. But honestly who can see grace? God's grace this and God's grace that. Do you even know what God's grace is?

Grace is good and sweet.

We see the grace of God by beholding Jesus Christ and all that He has done for us.

I know exactly what grace is. I participate in it every day.

"...the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:17

Gabriel Anton said:
I just want to do God's Will. I invite everyone to come and work for Almighty Jesus Christ.

"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:28-29

Gabriel Anton said:
Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance.

Who among us (regardless of their stance on security) would not try to do that?

Gabriel Anton said:
Stop daydreaming about Salvation but actually Work for your Salvation as Jesus Christ has willed it so.

I will both "daydream" about glory and I will also work out my salvation. It is He who is at work in me to do His good pleasure.

Without Him I can do nothing.

But according to some - He leavea His children when they sin and then they must work out their salvation by themselves until He decides to perhaps reengage with them - if they manage to measure up.

What utter nonsense.

Gabriel Anton said:
Embrace the Word of God with a good and generous heart and fill your lives with virtuous deeds meriting True Salvation.

Wow. Where to start?

You, in yourself, will never merit salvation.

Gabriel Anton said:
Make Jesus Christ proud to call you His Children.

Jesus Christ is plenty proud to do what His Father requires of Him. Namely - to lose not one of those that the Father has given to Him.

Gabriel Anton said:
God bless you.

May you come to faith in the merit of Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

Only then will you be blessed of God.

Until then - the wrath of God will abide on you.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2016

So those who promote that they can sin and still be saved (even though they will say we are supposed to live holy) will be in God's Kingdom while those who seek to let the work of Christ flow thru them as a part of abiding in Christ (Who is the source of our Eternal Life) will suffer punishment?

Sorry, I am not buying it.
For it only took one sin by Adam to cause the Fall of all of mankind. Why you think God would treat others differently is beyond me.

Oh and how can one abide in Christ and yet also teach that God will turn a blind eye to sin? Does God live in evil people who justify sin?

...

EmSw · Jul 14, 2016

Marvin Knox said:
The Son of God entered into a covenant with the Father before the foundation of the world.

That covenant was ratified in His life here on earth as the Son of man.

All the mutual "back scratching" occurred between the Father and Son already.

As a result the Son is seated at the right hand of glory (and, incidentally, I'm seated right there with Him as His bride and part of His body).

My life is hidden with Christ and I am in covenant with the Father through my Savior - the Last Adam.

Where in the world do you get the Son entered covenant with the Father? The new covenant is with the house of Israel.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Is this the covenant to which you refer?

Marvin Knox said:
Grace is good and sweet.

We see the grace of God by beholding Jesus Christ and all that He has done for us.

I know exactly what grace is. I participate in it every day.

"...the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:17

What does grace teach you? That a believer can continue in sin and be eternally secure?

Marvin Knox said:
"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” John 6:28-29

Who among us (regardless of their stance on security) would not try to do that?

I will both "daydream" about glory and I will also work out my salvation. It is He who is at work in me to do His good pleasure.

Without Him I can do nothing.

But according to some - He leavea His children when they sin and then they must work out their salvation by themselves until He decides to perhaps reengage with them - if they manage to measure up.

What utter nonsense.

Marvin, Marvin, no one, and I mean no one, has ever said they work out their salvation BY THEMSELVES.

Marvin Knox said:
Wow. Where to start?

You, in yourself, will never merit salvation.

Jesus Christ is plenty proud to do what His Father requires of Him. Namely - to lose not one of those that the Father has given to Him.

May you come to faith in the merit of Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

Only then will you be blessed of God.

Until then - the wrath of God will abide on you.

The wrath of God abides on him? So much for eternal security. Everyone is secure, including believers who continue in sin, BUT NOT those who disagree with YOU! Then the wrath of God abides on them; Jesus will lose these who believe in doing good for salvation.

Freedom Now · Jul 14, 2016

They get it from Psalm 89.

EmSw · Jul 14, 2016

Freedom Now said:
They get it from Psalm 89.

Oh, he must be talking about the covenant God made with David.

Freedom Now · Jul 14, 2016

EmSw said:
Oh, he must be talking about the covenant God made with David.

They believe it is speaking of Jesus in verse 27 and on.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2016

The more I learn about the beliefs of Eternal Security Proponents, the more I find them bending over backwards to re-write what God's Word says plainly. For example: one time, an Eternal Security Proponent told me that Galatians 5:19-21 was talking about not inheriting God's people (i.e. the believer's ability to not lead others to Christ) instead of it talking about how someone (who sins) will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Which is a place). This just shows you the desperate attempt they are willing to go to justify a sin and still be saved type doctrine. I will pray for them; As I encourage everyone else here to do the same, as well. God is good; He is not evil and He can no more agree with a believer's thinking that it is okay to sin and still be saved then for rain to not be wet.

...

Kersh · Jul 14, 2016

EmSw said:
I never said I do it alone. I said if I am not willing and determined of myself to abstain, it will NEVER happen, and neither will anybody else abstain.

Being willing and determined to obey is a fruit of faith. One cannot have faith in Christ and not be willing and determined to obey him. That would contradict the very nature of faith.

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Kersh · Jul 14, 2016

EmSw said:
Do you not believe abstaining from sexual immorality?

This seems like a trolling question. Of course I believe that we should abstain from sexual immorality . . . as the outcome of our faith.

I have no idea what nirvana is, but I didn't know sanctification helps one to escape the wheel of suffering.

It's a Buddhist concept. The idea is that suffering is caused by selfish desire. Nirvana is what Buddhists hope to attain by overcoming their desire. But, to put it more simply, if a non-Christian willingly abstains from sexual immorality for reasons having nothing to do with faith in Christ, is that person holy?

Are you saying now that one has the ability to abstain sexual immorality without faith?

No, but the truth is, I'd imagine that there are people for whom sexual immorality is not an issue. Different people have different moral issues in their lives. Not everyone's is about sex. For me, sexual temptation has been such an issue that I need God's sanctifying grace to deliver me from it. For others, maybe this isn't the case, because they have other issues. But, a person who is a thief, or a liar, or a violent persons, but who never acts in a sexually immoral manner is is no more holy than a sexually immoral person.

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Kersh · Jul 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I couldn't agree more. But we also need faith in the Savior, too. Salvation is not "Belief Alone Salvation-ism" (i.e. "Anti-moral-ism, or Lawlessness) nor is Salvation "Works Alone Salvation-ism" (i.e. Anti-Grace, or an Ignoring of Jesus as one's Savior).

...

That's why the Bible suggests a better way: salvation by grace through FAITH, not by works, so that no one can boast!

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Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2016

Kersh said:
That's why the Bible suggests a better way: salvation by grace through FAITH, not by works, so that no one can boast!

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As I said before. Salvation is indeed by grace THRU faith (and not of works alone in and of themselves). Works are merely the result of having a true faith or in abiding in Christ. Think of the Wind as God (Who is the source of a person's salvation) and think of a wave (as the works or the result of that wind). Waves cannot exist unless there is wind. Yet, it is not the water itself that moves on it's own power alone, but it is the Wind that moves the water and thereby makes it a wave. We are justified by works and not faith alone as James says because it is Christ in us that does the good work. No Son and there is no life (1 John 5:12).

...

Kersh · Jul 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Works are merely the result of having a true faith or in abiding in Christ.

This is EXACTLY what I've been saying all along.

Think of the Wind as God (Who is the source of a person's salvation) and think of a wave (as the works or the result of that wind). Waves cannot exist unless there is wind. Yet, it is not the water itself that moves on it's own power alone, but it is the Wind that moves the water and thereby makes it a wave. We are justified by works and not faith only as James says because it is Christ in us that does the good work. No Son and there is no life (1 John 5:12).

...

I agree, and I think this is a good analogy. I'm not sure why I'm being accused of supporting immorality in this discussion for taking the very position that you've just articulated quite well.

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Marvin Knox · Jul 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
For it only took one sin by Adam to cause the Fall of all of mankind. Why you think God would treat others differently is beyond me....

Because we are in the last Adam and not the first Adam.

We are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit of promise to the glory of His grace and mercy.

Obviously the concept is beyond you.

Jason0047 said:
.......and yet also teach that God will turn a blind eye to sin? ...

Can you provide a quote from a proponent of eternal security which teaches that?

I'd love to see it.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2016

Kersh said:
This is EXACTLY what I've been saying all along.

I agree, and I think this is a good analogy. I'm not sure why I'm being accused of supporting immorality in this discussion for taking the very position that you've just articulated quite well.

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I am glad that we can agree on what I said in my recent post you quoted.

Thank you.

As for Eternal Security and immorality: Well, in my many discussions with people who believe in Eternal Security over the years, I have discovered not all versions of Eternal Security are the same.

The most popular forms of Eternal Security justify a sin and still be saved doctrine on some level.

Version #1 teaches that one can sin as much as they want and they are still saved. Doing evil and sin with a belief in Jesus is more acceptable versus having a true faith in Jesus that is proven to be true by it's works.

Version #2 is a little more deceptive. It teaches that one must generally live a holy life to prove they are a child of God, but dying in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman does not mean they are not saved. The problem with this belief is that it thinks that there is a difference in committing many horrible sins versus one or two bad sins.

The only version of Eternal Security that appears to support God's laws and holiness is extremely rare. This version of Eternal Security teaches that if one does not walk in God's righteous ways, they were never born again to begin with. While this belief sounds all warm and fuzzy, it actually denies the many passages in Scripture that teach that believers have free will, and that believers can fall away from the faith. Hence, all the warnings to the believer to endure in their faith are rendered void. Which can be very dangerous because those warnings are there to help us continue to live righteously and not in sin (so that we may overcome in their life and not have their names blotted out of the Lamb's book of life) For if we abide in sin, we can be separated from God. Also, if one was living righteuosly for a long time and they back slid into sin, then they are going to wonder if they could ever trust the promises of God's forgiveness in regards to repentance again. They might think what is the point of believing again if their initial walk with the Lord did not turn out to be true.

...

Kersh · Jul 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I am glad that we can agree on what I said in my recent post you quoted.

Thank you.

As for Eternal Security and immorality: Well, in my many discussions with people who believe in Eternal Security over the years, I have discovered not all versions of Eternal Security are the same.

The most popular forms of Eternal Security justify a sin and still be saved doctrine on some level.

Version #1 teaches that one can sin as much as they want and they are still saved. Doing evil and sin with a belief in Jesus is more acceptable versus having a true faith in Jesus that is proven to be true by it's works.

Version #2 is a little more deceptive. It teaches that one must generally live a holy life to prove they are a child of God, but dying in one or two unrepentant sins like lying or lusting after a woman does not mean they are not saved. The problem with this belief is that it thinks that there is a difference in committing many horrible sins versus one or two bad sins.

The only version of Eternal Security that appears to support God's laws and holiness is extremely rare. This version of Eternal Security teaches that if one does not walk in God's righteous ways, they were never born again to begin with. While this belief sounds all warm and fuzzy, it actually denies the many passages in Scripture that teach that believers have free will, and that believers can fall away from the faith. Hence, all the warnings to the believer to endure in their faith are rendered void. Which can be very dangerous because those warnings are there to help us continue to live righteuosly and not in sin. For if we abide in sin, we can be separated from God. Also, if one was living righteuosly for a long time and they back slid into sin, then they are going to wonder if they could ever trust the promises of God's forgiveness in regards to repentance.

...

I am not a proponent of "Eternal Security", but I am not nearly as critical of it as you are. But, I disagree with the assertion that a person who sins is per se unsaved.

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Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2016

Kersh said:
I am not a proponent of "Eternal Security", but I am not nearly as critical of it as you are. But, I disagree with the assertion that a person who sins is per se unsaved.

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If you seen the damage that such a doctrine causes people, you would never say that.

Just check out these testimonials here:

Ex OSAS Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

A Pastor's Testimony on OSAS:
A testimony about OSAS by a Pastor's wife.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony

Murder, Suicide, & OSAS
George Sodini

As for sin causing a separation between God and believers: I believe God will first try to convict the believer of their sin by the Spirit so as to repent of it. If that doesn't work, they are chastised so to get them to repent if they are truly his children. If they are the type of believer who condones that folks can abide in and still be saved they don't have a chance because they are essentially pushing a license to sin or a doctrine of immorality. For how many sins does it truly take for it to be wrong?

Now, can a believer struggle with sin and desire with all their being to stop be condemned if they are confessing their sin and they are asking God for help and they are seeking help from other believers and they are applying God's Word to overcome sin? Surely not. For this person is not throwing their sword down in defeat and justifying a life of living in sin or making excuses to get away with sin at any point in their life.

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EmSw · Jul 14, 2016

Freedom Now said:
They believe it is speaking of Jesus in verse 27 and on.

I still wonder how he gets the Son MADE a covenant with the Father. Let me put the verses here and see what it says.

Psalm 89
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him (David):
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him (David).
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him (David); nor the son of wickedness afflict him (David).
23 And I will beat down his (David's) foes before his (David's) face, and plague them that hate him (David).
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him (David): and in my name shall his (David's) horn be exalted.
25 I will set his (David's) hand also in the sea, and his (David's) right hand in the rivers.
26 He (David) shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him (David) my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him (David) for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him (David).

Why would anyone want to suddenly insert Jesus into this passage when it is plainly speaking of David? Is it okay to take a verse out of context when you want it to confirm your doctrine? Why not look at the context around firstborn?

Also, it does not say the God MADE a covenant with the firstborn; it says the covenant (already made) will stand fast with him. Stand fast is to confirm, support, nourish, believe, nurse, and verified.

Verse 3 does say He MADE a covenant, but David is clearly in view.

I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Maybe he got his claim somewhere else.

Marvin Knox · Jul 14, 2016

One of the great lessons of the O.T. is that the threat of the wrath of God does not lead people to real obedience to God's commandments. In addition - whatever obedience is obtained through fear of retribution is as filthy rags before God in so far as salvation from eternal damnation goes.

On the other hand God's forgiveness and our reconciliation to Him do lead us to real obedience to God's commandments.

"Do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?" Romans 2:4

EmSw · Jul 14, 2016

Kersh said:
Being willing and determined to obey is a fruit of faith. One cannot have faith in Christ and not be willing and determined to obey him. That would contradict the very nature of faith.

Yet, from the time of Jesus until today, many had/have faith and were/are not willing and determined to obey Him. If that were so, we would have a very different church than what we see today.

EmSw · Jul 14, 2016

Kersh said:
This is EXACTLY what I've been saying all along.

Even you agree it's not faith alone that saves, but faith plus resulting works.

What is salvation?

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