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how can you lost something you never even had in the first place. toink.
We are speaking of those who:
Were once enlightened,
And have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
And were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
And the powers of the Age to Come...
What do you TOINK is missing here???
Straight from Heb 6:4-5
Arsenios
You have addressed me as Arsenios... Thank-you... It is my Baptismal name...
By what name can I return your kindness?
The Bible records that everything that is not of God is sin - Every word, every thought, every feeling, and every action and deed... So that when someone who is acting in this syndrome, or any other ego-centered complex of personality, is by that fact alone mentally disturbed, disordered, and dysfunctional...
You and I are not Jesus or Paul...
What I am asking of you is to not do so at the expense of the person with whom you are speaking...
Proffering forth Truth for all the OTHERS is merely to be cheap grandstanding which denigrates the holy words you cite...
And in this conviction you parade your "victory", because you made your brother to stumble???
You need to learn to have kinship with their humility and love, to obey Christ when He said these holy words:
Mat 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me;
for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Or the holy words of David the Prophet:
A heart that is broken and humbled...
God will not despise...
There is no one more important in a conversation than the person with whom one is having that conversation...
Arsenios
there is nothing to disagree with the verses. however Heb 6:4-5 is not the whole of scripture and therefore arminian conclusions (like yourself) needs to be tempered. obviously there were a lots of defectors and heretics that time, like what we have also today.
1Jn 2:19 balances the perspective. they left it, simply for the reason they never genuinely had it.
they have other desires they'd rather follow than the truth they experienced. seeds on rocks, seeds on thorns.
You wouldn't happen to be talking about my wife now, would you?
My name is Wayne; you may use that name.
Then are living in a world full of mentally disturbed people.
Are we not to follow and imitate Jesus? Just askin'.
Every writer in the word is proffering truth for others to accept. You have proffered a proposal for me to accept.
I think you are bringing your 'convictions' of me way too far. I would never want victory over a fellow believer. Why do you think he has stumbled?
Your words are appreciated.
there is nothing to disagree with the verses. however Heb 6:4-5 is not the whole of scripture and therefore arminian conclusions (like yourself) needs to be tempered. obviously there were a lots of defectors and heretics that time, like what we have also today.
1Jn 2:19 balances the perspective. they left it, simply for the reason they never genuinely had it.
they have other desires they'd rather follow than the truth they experienced. seeds on rocks, seeds on thorns.
The two do not "balance" each other - Each is true in its own context. Paul in Hebrews is speaking of those who are fully saved falling away, and what their end will be if they do not turn things around... At that point, they are only fit for burning... The meaning of that, while harsh, is cleansing, for it means, I should think, not death and loss of Christ necessarily, but the fire of crises and trials and calamities designed to return the miscreant to Christ...
otoh, it probably does mean death and destruction...
We do not get to throw God away after we have known the powers of the Age to Come...
Turn away after THAT, and I deserve to burn...
Remember the Israelites in the Babylonian captivity, when their captors asked them to sing for them? How they were heart-broken, far from home, in an alien land? And how they sang: "IF ever I should forget Thee O Jerusalem, let (all manner of ills befall me...)"... When one has KNOWN Christ, one simply CANNOT return to a worldly life... There really is no turning back once begun in Him...
Arsenios
- first of all not everyone is in agreement Paul wrote Hebrews, so this is an assumption
- it does not really define they "have been fully saved", this is a presumption from you. i mean even your own sect's soteriology do not agree that people are really "saved" (a definite, concluded event, past tense) until judgement day when the verdict falls down based on their own works+faith. so i do not understand why you turn tables now and became calvinistic in making a statement about this verse.
- thirdly is the reality of deception and heresy, i mean there are people really believing they know the gospel or are saved but eventually turn tails. since 2000 yrs past heresies have abounded which we still have until today. point is they have tested or even believed christ died for them, yet it is really questionable if they understood the gospel at all.
- as i have written already, seeds on rocks - seeds on thorns. Falling away is not an event issue but reality of which even Jesus gave a parable about it. seeds bloom for a moment into a plant but withered and die, either because of poor soil or choked by wordly desires, or taken by birds. BUT the plant founded on good soil grows to full bloom.
wrong belief, deception, even a wrong version of christ eventually leads to a falling away. they started yet they withered and died. but i will not agree that they are "saved" like you presume,
but here is the key : The farmer's intent was never on those seeds that fall on the sides but on the seeds he plants on good soil. and they will always bloom. Another way of saying is Jesus did not really save those who are not his, but only those whom He intentional calls his own, and they will never fall away. They are a new creation, God's workmanship, and sealed with the holy spirit.
but here is the key : The farmer's intent was never on those seeds that fall on the sides but on the seeds he plants on good soil. and they will always bloom. Another way of saying is Jesus did not really save those who are not his, but only those whom He intentional calls his own, and they will never fall away. They are a new creation, God's workmanship, and sealed with the holy spirit.
What farmer who plants seeds, doesn't expect a return on his work? It is foolish speculation to believe a farmer sows and doesn't expect a harvest.
yes i agree, i was pointing out to our orthodox friend turned calvinist for a moment that the farmer has no intention of harvesting seeds that fall NOT on good soils simply because it was not his intent.
arguing Hebrews 6:4-5 about the 'falling away' and writing in post #208 describing them as "fully saved falling away" discredits his position simply because in orthodox (like the RCC) does not believe anyone is "full saved" until judgment day when everyone is qualified saved or not by his so-called "faith+works". and yet he turns to a reformed position at this moment to argue his case haha
...to renew them again unto repentance.What do you TOINK is missing here???
Here's the text...
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Your argument is that those who have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly Gift, have been made paartakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good Word of God, have tasted the Powers of the Age to Come, that these have NOT been fully saved, yes?
So what, Biblically, are they LACKING in the Salvation they do have???
Arsenios
its not what they lack, you are always looking at it at a different perspective.
they are not saved simply because they fell away. their falling away vindicated/proved that they were never saved.
...
That is how it is understood in the whole of the Apostolic Church and in the Eastern Orthodox Communion that gave you the Bible... I am good with that, and if you are not, then I am still good with you...
...
Arsenios
Hello,
I just happened to come across this post. So, let me ask, was the servant in the parable in Matthew 18 not forgiven? That would seem to be the position you are taking, Geralt. Those who "fall away" were never saved (nor forgiven) to begin with. So is Jesus really in the business of saying that certain person's sins are forgiven, when in fact they are not? Wouldn't that make God a liar? I'm just trying to figure out if you have thought through your position - as for me, your position doesn't add up.
its not what they lack, you are always looking at it at a different perspective.
they are not saved simply because they fell away. their falling away vindicated/proved that they were never saved.
Faith is perfected by works. That is what James tells us...much like the reasoning in James 2 which you would agree. their faith was never proven genuine because their fruits (or lack of it) prove it to be so.
im amazed, you should be the one agreeing with this position considering you belong to a works+faith based sect. now you turn tails assuming everyone is "totally saved" (even though its not yet judgment day), and that they fall away just for the sake of presenting an opinion.
it was never about "salvation" -> you simply inserted this text and presumed the verse tells this people are "saved". as i have written previously, the parable of the seed and the sower christ defines this reality and thus it's not an issue worth arguing UNLESS you insert the word "salvation" which in this case you become out of context.
This text IS about Salvation, and the fact that one can possess it, and then lose it...
I gave you the list of attributes which indicate Salvation which are listed in the pericope, and I asked you to show which attribute was missing, and your reply is that they did not have Salvation from which they would be unable to fall away...
Thereby you are presuming that which is at issue...
Salvation can be lost...
From ANY attainment...
The Pope can fall...
Arsenios
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