WHat is Presbyterian?

dms1972 said:

Hi, I hope I am asking this in the right place. If not please move.

This is the denomination that as a child I was connected. I think I asked a time or two what it meant - But being a kid I didn't get an answer.

I wanted to ask about it theologically. I suppose I have tended to think of it as calvinist, but am I right? It seems presbyterians can vary a fair bit theologically - with both liberal, and fundamentalist types? How can I know what theology a particular church holds?

Can anyone help me further as to what it means to be "presbyterian"

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Very simply and basically, Presbyterian is an identification of a certain polity.

That is to say a form of church government. The Presbyterian denominations believe a congregation is governed by ruling elders who are laymen selected by the congregation usually for limited terms of office. The session --that group of ruling elders-- are moderated by teaching elders (Pastors) placed by the Presbytery. More on the Presbytery below.

A certain number of ruling and teaching elders from each member congregation serve as representatives of the Presbytery. The Presbytery approves the calling and dismissal of teaching elders (Pastors) in a congregation. They assist the local congregations who constitute it's membership.

In the mainline PCUSA there is another regional body called the Synod. They are arranged geographically. However this is not true of the smaller Presbyterian denominations. Those smaller denominations hold what is called the General Assembly, which consists of ruling and teaching elders from each congregation of the denomination. It is the General Assembly which usually speaks for the denomination in question.

With very few exceptions --Second Cumberland Presbyterian Church-- Presbyterian congregations hold to reformation doctrine as understood by John Calvin and John Knox in the case of Presbyterian churches.

Yes, they are Calvinist. Yes, they baptise infants.

Many Presbyterian denominations require strict subscription to Reformed doctrine, specifically the Westminster Confession of Faith for it's officers (Ruling and Teaching elders and Deacons). Some such as the PCUSA and the EPC do not.

There are some exceptions to the statements above --The Reformed Presbyterian Church North American Synod does not have a general assembly. They call it a synod instead. However it functions in the same manner as a general assembly.

The so called "continental reformed" churches (RCA, CRC, PRC) have the same type of structure, but use different names for the various "courts of the church" (Session, Presbytery, General Assembly). The popular names in Presbyterianism derive from the Scottish Church as organised by John Knox. The Continental Reformed are from the Reformed areas of the European Continent, usually Dutch, German or Swiss and use some slightly different terms and a different confession of faith. However it is often a difference without distinction.

I always wondered about that too, yet never thought to ask. I knew about all of the stuff mentioned, but didn't know that was the reason for the name. Great answer Calvinist Dark Lord.

Most Presbyterian churches in the US are part of the PCUSA. It is not exactly covered by the answers above. It's a mainline church. Its polity is as subscribed, but it accepts modern Biblical studies and theology. That means its theology shares a lot with other mainline churches, such as the Lutherans (ELCA), Episcopal, etc. It doesn't accept Biblical inerrancy, and has more liberal views on gender / sexual issues.

Here's a web page with information about the PCUSA: http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/101/
Here are our official confessions of faith: http://www.creeds.net/reformed/creeds.htm

Members vary on predestination. The official position is what I'd call "soft." Most Presbyterians understand that in the end we're called by Christ, and we're his children through no credit of our own. But most don't quite teach TULIP. Here's a statement from the Declaration of Faith (http://www.creeds.net/reformed/PCUSA1985/1985-int.htm):

The Spirit makes us aware of our sinfulness and need,
moves us to abandon our old way of life,
persuades us to trust in Christ and adopt his way.
In all these things we are responsible for our decisions.
But after we have trusted and repented
we recognize that the Spirit enable us to hear and act.
It is not our faith but God's grace in Jesus Christ
that justifies us and reconciles us to God.
Yet it is only by faith that we accept God's grace
and live by it.

The main body of Presbyterians in the US started diverging from TULIP and other traditional Reformed thought as early as the late 19th Cent. However there have been a number of groups that departed and formed conservative groups. They generally use the Westminster Confession (http://www.creeds.net/reformed/Westminster/wstmnstr.htm) as a standard, and require officers, and in most cases members, to agree with it to a high degree.

Most participants in this forum are from the conservative churches.

Note that there is a Presbyterian forum here. It's called Confessional, Covenantal, Creedal - Presbyterian. Many of the same people participate in both. You'll get pretty much the same answer if you ask the question there.

This forum covers the whole Reformed movement, which includes both Presbyterian (which historically goes back to England and Scotland) and a set of "continental" Reformed denominations (from Switzerland, Holland, etc.). The Presbyterian forum covers only the Presbyterian groups. Theology is very similar across all of the denominations. There are minor differences in terminology for some bodies within the church. The continental Reformed churches also have mainline and conservative versions.

This group also has members who are Reformed Baptist. While the Reformed Baptists are close to Presbyterian and Continental Reformed, they practice infant baptism, and have other minor differences in theology and practice.

You’re right that my information is mostly about the US. But the same distinctions occur elsewhere. In a number of English-speaking countries the largest Presbyterian church is much like the PCUSA. Many have conservative branches as well, as we do here. In Canada, the biggest Presbyterian church is a bit more conservative than ours, largely because the churches with mainline theology tended to join the United Church of Canada. But in other English-speaking countries they tend to have theology similar to the PCUSA.

Note that in many countries united churches like the United Church of Canada were formed. These are all mainline in theology. In those countries most of the Presbyterian congregations joined the United Church. That’s not true in Scotland, where the largest church is the Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian. (It’s actually one of the two mother churches of Presbyterians in the US.) Nor does it seem to be true in the UK.

So the point is, mainline theology is pretty common for English-speaking Presbyterians, but in most countries you’ll also find Presbyterians like our conservatives: who are committed to following the Westminster Confession pretty closely.

The Wikipedia articles are right about the history, but if they leave the impression that this is just a US issue, that’s a bit misleading. Today, whatever the history, mainline basically refers to denominations that accept the results of science and archaeology in areas that affect the accuracy of the Bible, and recent scholarship in theology and the Bible. That results in some differences from historical Presbyterian views. Because this scholarship is largely ecumenical, mainline denominations tend to hold similar views whether they are Presbyterian, Lutheran, Methodist, or whatever. Even Catholic theologians and Biblical scholars are often part of that community, though the strong commitment of the Catholic Church to tradition means that not all of their ideas have been officially accepted yet.

I’d say a mainline orientation (though it’s probably not called that) is if anything more common outside the US, since Christians in the US tend to be more conservative than elsewhere in the first world. E.g. the well-known scholar N T Wright, who is basically mainline in US terms, is considered conservative in the UK, because he accepts things like the Resurrection, but liberal or mainline in the US because he doesn’t believe in inerrancy, and thinks the Reformers made some errors in interpreting Paul.

According to the Wikipedia article, the Presbyterian church in Ireland had exactly the same conflicts over modernism that we did, in the asme time period. There was the same history of splits and rejoining. I’m least familiar with the Presbyterian Church of Ireland of any of the Presbyterian churches. But my impression is that many of its members and leaders are what we’d call mainline, but it is significantly more conservative than the PCUSA. It is a member of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, which is the more liberal of the two competing world Reformed groups.

dms1972 said:

What I mean if you look for a book on the Fundamentalist/Modernist controversy most will be about that within the American context.

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I understand. But it happened and is still alive in more places than th US.