What is Original Sin?

Iollain said:

Yes i think so, the Law never saved anyone and before the Law of Moses came, all were under sin still (fall of Adam), your either under sin (the fall of Adam, from dust we came to dust we will go - death) or under curse of the Law, the Law added transgressions. The Law is good but the Law cannot save. Jesus was the only one perfect under the Law. All the human race was under the fall and death wether they sinned or not.

A baby who dies at birth did not sin in that particular way, but was still under the fall and death from Adam, they needed a Saviour. Everyone either looked forward to the cross, or back to the cross for Salvation.

So a baby would be under death from the fall of Adam, without the Cross.

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The Law says everyone have sinned (Read the book of Romans). It is true that a child who have died, have died under the law. HOWEVER, All (children,mentally challanged) who die before they reach the understanding of salvation and embrace the gospel by faith, are graciously saved eternally by God through the work of Jesus Christ. In other words, infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, Who works when, where, and how He pleases. So also are all elect persons who are incapable (including unreached souls) of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 ).

Born in sin, yet having not committed sin as an act of the will? The key issue here is one of comprehension of, or the understanding of the Gospel message.

How can God judge someone (i.e. infants) who can't even understand words? And what about those who are older, but can't understand words? Like a severely retarded (mentally-challenged) person? Will they be held accountable for their sins?

From reading the bible, Jesus never had an encounter with a child and lead him to faith. He encounter a lot of people; preached to a lot of crowds, and a lot of people believed, but there is never any indication about a child believing.

Jesus praised children for their innocent faith; "for such is the kingdom of heaven." While this is most probably an endorsement of healthy character and attitudes, it is also an approval of children in general. Jesus' teachings concerning children show the highest love and respect (Matt. 18:1-6).

David makes a proclamation which many feel reveals the eternal state of an infant. 2 Sam. 12:23 states,

"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me."

The condition of salvation for adults is personal faith. Infants and mentally challenged are incapable of fulfilling this condition. For this reason, many have suggested that there is an age of accountability. By this, it is understood that at a certain time in a person's life he/she becomes aware of personal responsibility for wrong actions.

We need never fear about God being unjust. He cannot be. His mercy and justice are from everlasting to everlasting. I therefore conclude, that there will be no children in hell. There will also be no retarded, or otherwise mentally-incapacitated individuals there, those who cannot fully comprehend and understand what Christ has accomplished on their behalf at Calvary

holyrokker said:

Psalm 58:3 "Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies."

OK - how is this a case in favor if "original sin"?

First - It isn't talking about "universal" sin. The context of the psalm is contrasting the "wicked" against the "righteous". In keeping with that context, if we interpret this verse that the wicked are born that way, then we'd be forced to conclude that the righteous are born righteous.
Second - Do the wicked speak from thei birth as this verse says? Obviously the language of this psalm is not to be taken literally, nor is it a doctrinal statement concerning the state of all mankind at birth.

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1) Sin is not learned; It is inherited.
There is none righteous, not even one (unless they are born again).
Therefore, I have no problems with your conclusion.

2) Do babies have to learn disobedience? Not the ones I've seen - disobedience is a part of their nature. Babies must learn obedience. Right?

bjh said:

1) Sin is not learned; It is inherited.
There is none righteous, not even one (unless they are born again).
Therefore, I have no problems with your conclusion.

2) Do babies have to learn disobedience? Not the ones I've seen - disobedience is a part of their nature. Babies must learn obedience. Right?

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Part of the "fallen" nature.

to decide or think that the child dies in innocence will probably return to God's kingdom is pure speculation. you cannot make this kind of warm hearted statement b/c you want to think or believe the God is all loving, and kind.

you will fall into the trap of also saying all children born in Africa, who have no chance will also go to God or people brought up in eskimo land who never hear about Jesus , just so called innocent. ,go back to God.

The kingdom is not just a door open to all aids born patients or 'innocent' people that might have died in the 9/11 fiasco.
too much flagrant talk will not bring about Truth,

Stick to the words of Jesus.

and i know your going to say that "the Kingdom of God is like unto a child", but equating that statement with God forgiven all children who die at early age is just opinion.

your thoughts of who goes to God and then begs the idea , of why didn't i die when i was two?. Was God being mean to me making me, through all the hell years? and i'm still stuck with these two girfriends____LOOKOUT !!!! CRASH !!! DEAD !! BOOM ! _______________________________________HELL.

bjh said:

1) Sin is not learned; It is inherited.
There is none righteous, not even one (unless they are born again).
Therefore, I have no problems with your conclusion.

2) Do babies have to learn disobedience? Not the ones I've seen - disobedience is a part of their nature. Babies must learn obedience. Right?

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How does Matthew 18:3 relate to that?

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

holyrokker said:

How does Matthew 18:3 relate to that?

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

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2nd Birth (see also John 3) "You must be born again".

To the OP...

Think of Sin as a disease... we all have it, but are not responsible for the original sin of man which has caused our fallen nature...

This physical body as we have it now is not what was designed for us... Our bodies are sick.

Svt4Him said:

IMO it's a bad doctrine that has little Biblical backing. Original sin is the belief that we are all born in sin and sinful after that. It's taken from the verse posted above, but the verse said sin entered the world, not the people. It will enter the people, as all will sin because we have a selfish nature, but a child born is not born 'in sin'. The other verse used for this is David when he said in sin his mother birthed him, but I tend to believe David's mother was in sin. That would explain why David was not brought to the prophet with the rest of Jesse's sons. It also makes sense as sex in marriage is not sin, and children are a gift from God.

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That is your take on it, however, it is a misguided understanding. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. (Roman 3:23) We are born into sin and a child is just as sinful as an adult. If not Christ would not have told Nicodemus that you must be "Born Again" into the Spirit.

And your interpretation of David is from I don't know where.

Regarding:


How does Matthew 18:3 relate to that?

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

bjh said:

2nd Birth (see also John 3) "You must be born again".

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What I meant to ask (forgive me for thinking you could read my mind) was, if children are born sinful and disobedience is natural for them, why would Jesus say that we must become like a little child?

I know that He is talking about new birth, but if that new birth means that we become like a small child, how is that any benefit if a child is sinful from birth?

holyrokker said:

Regarding:


How does Matthew 18:3 relate to that?

"And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."



What I meant to ask (forgive me for thinking you could read my mind) was, if children are born sinful and disobedience is natural for them, why would Jesus say that we must become like a little child?

I know that He is talking about new birth, but if that new birth means that we become like a small child, how is that any benefit if a child is sinful from birth?

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"You must become like a little child" in Matthew is the same as John's "You must be born again". It's the same concept expressed in different terms for different audiences.

The benefit is that the new birth is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:13)

Perhaps I should have reworded the first paragraph to say that becoming like a small child is the result of new birth, but the focus is on the spiritual rather than the physical.