What is Hopeful Universalism?

Light of the East said:

Scripture and universal tradition are not against this. For the first 500 years of the Church, there were four theological schools which taught Universalism without so much as a single whimper against them or anyone calling them out for "heresy." They were closed by Emperor Justinian, who zealously hated the teaching and did not wish it to exist in the Roman Empire of the East.

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You are fond of making this claim about the "four schools" for "500 years". However, in an older topic, in direct response to you claiming this (without you offering any evidence), Der Alte observed:

Der Alte said:

I have seen this claim "Universal Restoration. 500 years of teaching it in four theological schools..." multiple times in this and other forums. But what I have never seen is any credible, verifiable, historical evidence supporting the claim. I only know of one source which makes the claim but does not itself provide any supporting evidence i.e. Schaff, Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge
Link: Philip Schaff: Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia Vol. : 0120=96 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Here is all that the article says.
Schaff, Herzogg Encycopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism, Vol. 12 p. 96

"In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were five or six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalist but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown."​

I would appreciate anyone who could search and find something
1. Credible, definitely not Andy Anonymous' blog.
2. Verifiable, actually exists and readily available to the average person, not only available at a major university library with student ID..
3. Historical, something written at or near the times in question by a participant or direct eye witness.

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And then he added:

Der Alte said:

"In the West this doctrine had fewer adherents and was never accepted by the Church at large. In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were five or six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalist but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown."​

I'm going to critique my own source. Other than posts quoting this statement, I know of no other published credible source for the above information.
Note this statement "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity." The author of this doesn't even know exactly the time period when the early church supposedly believed in universalism.
Next this statement "there were five or six known theological schools" is self contradictory. Either the "theological schools" were "known" or they weren't. If they were "known" the author would have "known" exactly how many schools there actually were instead of saying "five or six known... schools."
Then the author mentions "other theological schools" but does not know what they taught.

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You offered no response to that point in that topic. Now, few people have the time or interest to respond to every response to them, so I'm not going to begrudge you for that (I've certainly bowed out of plenty of arguments online). But the problem is, you still continue to make this "four schools, 500 years" claim in other topics repeatedly, and in the multiple times I've seen you assert it as fact, I've never seen you offer any evidence for it; you just assert it without evidence, even after (as noted before) being challenged on the lack of evidence. Maybe you just missed the above reply, but in any event you've still never offered evidence for it... at least not in the cases I've seen you repeat this claim.

Can you offer better evidence for it than two sentences in an encyclopedia article (by a universalist so not without bias) from more than a century ago?

Greetings brethen. Origen was NOT a universalist.

LW97Nils said:

Greetings brethen. Origen was NOT a universalist.

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That's kind of an odd statement, considering that so many people condemn him for exactly that.

I know of a writing titled: The Apocalypse of Peter which is said ( never read it) to have a vision of hell that seems to have inspired Dante ( also never read). Despite that vision, there is an account within this that somehow the souls of those saved prayed for the salvation of the fallen souls. I only mention this because this book was seen as scripture by some early Christians in the 2nd century:


The fragment mentions two approved works of apocalyptic literature: the Apocalypse of Johnand the Apocalypse of Peter. The Apocalypse of John would go on to be better known as "Revelation" in the modern New Testament, while the Apocalypse of Peter would eventually fall out of favor in the 4th and 5th centuries




Perhaps this is a source ( among others I guess) for some confusion vs the Gospels as in Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:22-30 etc.
Of course we should pray for the salvation of souls living & cautiously for the earthly departed and for the saints & angels prayers for the same.

caffeinated.hermit said:

@Light of the East I am very sympathetic. While many / most EO may not affirm UR, it does seem like some have.

A Theology of Everything

Seems like it's better to err on the side of mercy rather than shut people out and gloat. I've been that person, and didn't realize how big of a Pharisee I sounded like until I got the chance to look back. I'm not EO and can't speak (in any way) for Orthodoxy, but I don't think it's all that weird that you believe this.

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I can't actually say that I fully believe this, rather that I have a strong hope that Universal Restoration is true. There are some reasons for this, but the main one is that if it is not true, I am in deep kimchee, being the hot mess of a professing Christian that I am. In my more lucid moments, thinking of the Last Judgment and standing before Christ, I have a fear based on the many horrid sins that I have committed in the past and the way my heart still in its deepest parts wishes to return to this like a dog to its vomit (Lord, was a disgusting analogy!) In short, part of my desire for this to be true is very selfish and self-centered.

But the more I observe human behavior and the white-hot hatred people have for Christ, along with so many who don't care and pay no attention to Him, His Church, His moral law, and the Bible, the more I struggle to believe and/or understand that somehow in the next life these God-haters, God-deniers, and the indifferent will somehow be brought to a point of change in their rancid dislike of Christ.

I also bear a great guilt over my earlier years as a professing Christian when I was a Fundamentalist JERK who thought he knew it all and as such, drove my children away from Christ by being part of a religion which didn't teach the love of God for us sinners, but rather just constantly harped in condemning everything and everyone. Children are not enchanted by such a "god" and mine have all turned away from Christ because of this garbage preaching and my living out this constant condemnation at home. In short, if there is an eternal hell of suffering and my children wind up in it, I am majorly responsible for their condemnation. This is no small thing.

I hope with all my heart that the mercy of God is so far beyond what we can believe or imagine that to know it in this life would absolutely stun us.

caffeinated.hermit said:

@Light of the East I am very sympathetic. While many / most EO may not affirm UR, it does seem like some have.

A Theology of Everything

Seems like it's better to err on the side of mercy rather than shut people out and gloat. I've been that person, and didn't realize how big of a Pharisee I sounded like until I got the chance to look back. I'm not EO and can't speak (in any way) for Orthodoxy, but I don't think it's all that weird that you believe this.

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That's quite a beautiful and hopeful piece of writing. The author seems to be a very studious and thoughtful Christian, and I have hit the "Subscribe" button to get his further thoughts.

Light of the East said:

I hope with all my heart that the mercy of God is so far beyond what we can believe or imagine that to know it in this life would absolutely stun us.

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I think we have every reason to hope this. The God who gave Himself for us after becoming man would not skip any lengths to bring every soul to Himself, no matter how lost or jaded they may seem.