What is "design" and how to detect it

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 16, 2015

SkyWriting said:
"Design" is involved when there is no clear reason "why" something occurred.
No one has explained "why" life would develop from non-life, so this implies design.

The best current explanation of why life developed from non-life, is that the chemical and energetic environment was suitable for the reactions that produced the first chemical replicators, and the development that eventually resulted in them becoming sufficiently complex to satisfy the criteria for living things. What we don't know is precisely how this occurred - though there are a variety hypothesized scenarios.

I find the insistence on intelligent design being necessarily characterised by complexity a little odd, considering that the human designs that are generally considered the best are characterised by their simplicity...

FrumiousBandersnatch · Sep 16, 2015

Vaccine said:
Chance modifying an existing thing is not the same as chance producing an entirely new thing.

Well quite; this is the core of the debate - evolution is the theory that all living things we know of are modifications of a single ancestral form of life, supported by a great deal of evidence, including common chemistry, common structures, common mechanisms, and compelling evidence of the tree-like ancestral hierarchy of relationships we would expect if this were the case.

sfs · Sep 16, 2015

SkyWriting said:
Thank you and it was your point you were making. Inane or not.

"Even the range of antibodies that you can produce before infection wasn't programmed into your DNA when your were born."

To recap: someone suggested that the origin of biological information transcends chemicals and requires intelligence. I pointed out that biological information is created without intelligence all the time, and gave antibody production as an example -- which it is. Your reply -- that we're born with the ability to produce lots of different antibodies -- in no way undercuts the fact that biological information is produced by natural processes in our immune system. It's not clear from your response whether you understand that or not.

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

sfs said:
To recap: someone suggested that the origin of biological information transcends chemicals and requires intelligence. I pointed out that biological information is created without intelligence all the time, and gave antibody production as an example -- which it is. Your reply -- that we're born with the ability to produce lots of different antibodies -- in no way undercuts the fact that biological information is produced by natural processes in our immune system. It's not clear from your response whether you understand that or not.

I see from a different perspective. Not new information. The source information clearly identifies the
ability to "kick into overdrive" it's ability to match the invading problem infections. It's a well engineered process.
It's like having sex with a girl in a girl's dormitory. You have the skills to pull it off, or you don't.

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
The best current explanation of why life developed from non-life, is that the chemical and energetic environment was suitable for the reactions that produced the first chemical replicators, and the development that eventually resulted in them becoming sufficiently complex to satisfy the criteria for living things. What we don't know is precisely how this occurred - though there are a variety hypothesized scenarios.

And there are thermal, chemical, even atomic reasons for chemical interactions, all seeking the lowest levels possible.
I don't care how it happens. I want to know why life would happen. What is the scientific reason?

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

FrumiousBandersnatch said:
I find the insistence on intelligent design being necessarily characterised by complexity a little odd, considering that the human designs that are generally considered the best are characterised by their simplicity...

Space travel, cell phones, computers, automobiles, the internet, GMO's, buildings, power plants, society, economics, politics, America, and manufacturing and what I consider noble achievements.

But you are right that I cherish camping in tents without all those things, the best.
Some go farther than me in simplicity, but I do not feel that is best:
http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/naked-and-afraid/

DogmaHunter · Sep 17, 2015

SkyWriting said:
You have millions of cubic tons of life and non-living material to work with
as well of the attention of every living and dead scientist to work with.
And not one theory to test? Are you living proud?

First of all, that is a flat out lie. You have never heared of "abiogenesis"? It's a work in progress.

Second of all, AGAIN you are appealing to ignorance.

sfs · Sep 17, 2015

SkyWriting said:
I see from a different perspective. Not new information. The source information clearly identifies the
ability to "kick into overdrive" it's ability to match the invading problem infections. It's a well engineered process.

"Information" now seems to have no particular meaning in this thread. Let's start small. A particular antibody is coded for by a particular DNA sequence. I've often been told by creationists that DNA coding for something contains information. Is that true? Does the DNA carry the information needed to make that antibody or not?

It's like having sex with a girl in a girl's dormitory. You have the skills to pull it off, or you don't.

Huh?

Loudmouth · Sep 17, 2015

ChetSinger said:
Then I'm curious. What part do you think God played in the creation of the earth, and the life on it?

What part in weather patterns do you think God plays?

What part in planetary orbits do you think God plays?

What part in active volcanoes do you think God plays?

Or do you think all of these things occur through natural means?

Loudmouth · Sep 17, 2015

SkyWriting said:
I see from a different perspective. Not new information. The source information clearly identifies the
ability to "kick into overdrive" it's ability to match the invading problem infections.

What source information?

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

sfs said:
Huh?

The ability to adapt to changing circumstances and avoid random efforts is intelligence or intelligent design.

ChetSinger · Sep 17, 2015

Loudmouth said:
What part in weather patterns do you think God plays?

What part in planetary orbits do you think God plays?

What part in active volcanoes do you think God plays?

Or do you think all of these things occur through natural means?

I think they all operate based on his original design: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.".

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

DogmaHunter said:
First of all, that is a flat out lie. You have never heared of "abiogenesis"? It's a work in progress. Second of all, AGAIN you are appealing to ignorance.

The topic was pride.

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

Loudmouth said:
What part in weather patterns do you think God plays?
What part in planetary orbits do you think God plays?
What part in active volcanoes do you think God plays?
Or do you think all of these things occur through natural means?

God is holding each electron in it's (cloud) orbit.
Without the efforts of the Creator, all matter would cease to exist.

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him.

17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

SkyWriting · Sep 17, 2015

DogmaHunter said:
First of all, that is a flat out lie.

A lie is saying something I don't believe. Especially those flat lies. Try again.

Loudmouth · Sep 17, 2015

SkyWriting said:
God is holding each electron in it's (cloud) orbit.
Without the efforts of the Creator, all matter would cease to exist.

How so? Do you think the electroweak force is incapable of doing this? What evidence do you have to back this claim?

sfs · Sep 17, 2015

SkyWriting said:
The ability to adapt to changing circumstances and avoid random efforts is intelligence or intelligent design.

The topic was "information". Does the DNA that codes for specific antibodies contain information or not?

Loudmouth · Sep 17, 2015

ChetSinger said:
I think they all operate based on his original design: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.".

So God has no active part in any of those things operating?

ChetSinger · Sep 17, 2015

Loudmouth said:
So God has no active part in any of those things operating?

While I'm in the mood for conversation, I don't feel like playing 20 questions today.

Loudmouth · Sep 17, 2015

ChetSinger said:
While I'm in the mood for conversation, I don't feel like playing 20 questions today.

How am I supposed to understand what you mean if I don't ask questions?

What is "design" and how to detect it

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