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I was on staff when the decisions were made.Christ's_Warrior is correct.
This includes the Catholic(Roman and Eastern), Eastern Orthodox (Greek, Russian, OCA, Antiochian et c) , Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Ethiopian, Indian, Assyrian et c).
I've heard that the Anglican churches, Old Catholic and the Lutheran churches are included, but I've also heard that they aren't.
What do you think...
It does matter doesn't it? To say it's Apostolic includes the fact that it was established by an Apostle. Right?
Forgive me...
I was on staff when the decisions were made.
Lutherans are not involved because they dont have Bishops,
Anglicans and Old Catholic are illicitly ordained,
How can anyone know for sure that one of these clergy of a Protestant denomination who claims apostolic succession really has it when, if it does exist in their denomination, it would be the rare exception to the rule?
This is important and not said enough:illicit ordination is a kinda' oxy-moron. Either one has lineage in apostolic succession or it doesn't exist.To acknowledge succession as a reality - then to undermine it's efficacy because one didn't have papal permission to do so, for example, is to create another standard for succession. Does Rome for example, have a copyright for succession?
An Apostolic Church is a church that claims apostolic succession.
An Apostolic Church is a church that claims apostolic succession.
I think for the purposes of an eccumenical discussion of theology this is the only working definition. I would add however that one of the characteristics of being an Apostolic Church is the belief that the validity and spiritual authority of that particular Church is due to its possession of the historic episcopate. I believe this is what historically distinguished Anglicans from those Lutherans that preserved the historic line of bishops: While both groups preserved the actual lineage of bishops, only Anglicans taught that the episcopal line was necessary for the authority of the Church.
A good case can be made, however, that the Anglican Church has never taken that POV. We're defensive when the Roman Church declares, for political reasons of its own, that our priests are not valid, but that's a different matter.
Don't worry about it, but you may note that there is no mention of Apostolic Succession validity in either the Articles or the Quadrilateral, yet to talk with the average Anglican or Episcopalian you'd think it was one of our most cherished beliefs. We HAVE A.S., it's valid, and we're going to keep it...but WHY is never pondered by the typical Anglican.
the necessity of the Historic Episcopate was spelled out in the Quadrilateral.
As far as Anglicans having A.S. that is valid, I think that at this point that cannot be said of all Anglicans:
First of all, a small percentage of Anglicans (such as the Episcopal Church) have women "bishops."
Hmmm. I don't know. Is there much support for that POV anywhere in the Anglican world?Secondly, not all Anglicans believe in the faith of the Apostles In order to have Apostolic authority one must be proclaiming the faith of the Apostles. This is axiomatic, since that's basically what the doctrine of Apostolic Succession is claiming: "this church has the authority handed down from the Apostoles and proclaims their teaching
Do not misunderstand what I'm saying: I'm not suggesting that they can't have AS because of their belief of what the ancient faith is. I'm saying that they don't have AS because they don't believe that the ancient faith is actually authoritative for today. This means that they intentionally don't hold to the doctrine of Apostolic Succession itself. If you reject the idea of Apostolic Authority then you are rejecting the very idea of Apostolic Succession since the two are one and the same.
OK, I usually don't raise that issue here, but OK. What, therefore, do you think of the ACNA's permission for women priests (unlike the Continuing Anglican churches)? Acceptable because they aren't bishops although a priest is a delegate of the bishop? Or perhaps it's an issue that is yet to be decided?
Hmmm. I don't know. Is there much support for that POV anywhere in the Anglican world?
I've posted in reference to this so many times before, and I thought that you had responded to my posts.
However, it shouldn't matter for this forum since it isn't STR, and isn't labled to Anglican specifics.
If so, I've forgotten what we said then.
Huh? This is one of the few Apostolic churches represented here, and Apostolic Succession is the determining factor in who gets to belong to this forum. Sounds relevant to me, but if you're reluctant to talk further about it, I'm OK with that.
I've been pretty vocal about being opposed to it. In the ACNA it only occurs in a few diocese right now, and there is considerable controversy over the issue.
Interesting. I agree that there's a chance that one or some of the constitutent church bodies might back out if this is ever brought up front and center for a final decision. My guess is that it never will be.If they were to begin to make women bishops, the apostolic line would cease there as well. However, the ACNA is just getting off the ground and its major eccumenical partners are strongly opposed to WO. I think there is still hope that the practice will be restricted to the diaconate (or be limited to a separate order of "deaconess") within a few years. If not, then I'll leave.
So if you reject Apostolic Succession
Interesting. I agree that there's a chance that one or some of the constitutent church bodies might back out if this is ever brought up front and center for a final decision. My guess is that it never will be.
No one's rejecting Apostolic Succession.
From the people that I've spoken with, it seems that moving the Church toward orthodoxy is still possible. I am somewhat cynical about this being successful.
My guess is that orthodox Anglicanism is basically over. If the Continuers couldn't make it work back in the 1970s it seems unlikely that we will be able to either.
Oh, there are a number of them, but the problem is that they are small.it seems unlikely that there will ever be an orthodox Anglican body in North America.
Yes and no. The Continuing Churches are still here, but ACNA probably sealed the fate of both itself and them by not joining with them but instead going off on its own.
Oh, there are a number of them, but the problem is that they are small.
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