What if we don't PRACTICE what Jesus PREACHED?

chestertonrules · Aug 1, 2008

Is this a condition of salvation?

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

BobW188 · Aug 2, 2008

I think Peter Kreeft had a good answer: "There are saints who know they are sinners; and sinners who think they are saints."

nobdysfool · Aug 2, 2008

What if we don't PRACTICE what Jesus PREACHED?

Then we won't get what Jesus promised.

But, that doesn't mean that we do this under our own power, or by our own efforts. Faith without works is dead, being alone, but True Faith produces works which testify to that faith. One cannot do works to get faith. Works always follow True Faith. The works don't save. Faith does. Works-based religions such as Catholicism miss those important distinctions.

BobW188 said:
"There are saints who know they are sinners; and sinners who think they are saints."

I think we see a lot of the latter here; Proud, agenda-driven men who try to adopt a "scorched earth" policy toward any who do not accept their particular flavor of "truth". Thus, any tactic, no matter how immoral or sinful, is acceptable to them as offensive tactics, but they decry the use of their own tactics against them. They would have us believe that they use such tactics from the "purest of motives", but when used against them, those same tactics are "proof" of the sinfulness, and deceit of those they wish to destroy.

The astute reader here will know exactly who I am referring to, and why.

Ormly · Aug 2, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Is this a condition of salvation?

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

No. However, I believe it separates those who presumptuously think they are born again by the saying of the sinners prayer, from those who truly are chosen of God. Many are called, few chosen. Keeping in mind that believing Jesus is the Son of God and confessing Him is all that is required for salvation, notice, if a man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ in him Jesus says, He is none of mine". Does that intimate he is wasn't saved or rather he is not going to be a joint-heir with Christ because he is not born again? What constitutes "being chosen" as opposed to "being called"? Consider the parable of the "Wedding Garment". Think of it as the "friend" who wants Christ on his own terms, however, who refuses to give up his old ways. Much peaching today says Jesus will change my life leaving me believing he will do it without exacting anything from me. That is false teaching based upon false intimations leaving many to believe, "this thing doesn't work" and they walk away from Christ.

If we don't practice what Jesus practiced, we miss out on 'son-ship, heir-ship and throne-ship. . . . the "Pearl of Great Price". To practice what Jesus practiced is the 'buying of gold" from Him that pays for the Pearl for our possession.

chestertonrules · Aug 2, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Then we won't get what Jesus promised.

But, that doesn't mean that we do this under our own power, or by our own efforts. Faith without works is dead, being alone, but True Faith produces works which testify to that faith. One cannot do works to get faith. Works always follow True Faith. The works don't save. Faith does. Works-based religions such as Catholicism miss those important distinctions.

Click to expand...

Your ignorance of Catholicism is excusable, but not your distortions. Here's the official Catholic statement on grace:

II. GRACE
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46
1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.
1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

nobdysfool · Aug 2, 2008

And as usual you totally ignored what I actually said.

beloved57 · Aug 2, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Is this a condition of salvation?

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

He preached the doctrines of grace, Tulip ..

chestertonrules · Aug 2, 2008

beloved57 said:
He preached the doctrines of grace, Tulip ..

TULIP is man made dogma.

nobdysfool · Aug 2, 2008

chestertonrules said:
TULIP is man made dogma.

Catholicism is man-made dogma.

chestertonrules · Aug 2, 2008

nobdysfool said:
Catholicism is man-made dogma.

Is Jesus just a man?

nobdysfool · Aug 3, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Is Jesus just a man?

Jesus was and is both Man and God.

beloved57 · Aug 3, 2008

chestertonrules said:
TULIP is man made dogma.

Nope sorry, its the doctrine Christ taught and was given him of The Father..

jn 7:

16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

The doctrine of discrimanting Sovereign grace, for Gods sheep is christ doctrine..

matt 15:

22And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

lk 4:

25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

The doctrine of Gods discriminating grace makes men angry and wrathful today, and note these were religous folk, in the synagouge lol..

childofGod31 · Aug 3, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Is this a condition of salvation?

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Yes, it is the condition of salvation.
Because Jesus said: not everyone who says to me: Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only He who does the will of My Father.

James said that if you only read the Bible, but don't do what it says, you will deceive yourself (into thinking that you are a Christian).

JAM 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

This applies to everybody.

If you believe in "predestination", then you have to make sure that you see yourself doing the will of God, producing works of faith, and practicing what the Bible teaches. If you don't do these, you are not really saved, right? (and that also would mean that there is no way for you to be saved, because you already invited Jesus into your heart, but He didn't come, right? And so this means - God already made his choice of not choosing you and that means that it's hopeless to try to repent again? Right?) - I believe that whatever I just said above, is the reason that the doctrine of predestination is dangerous and closes the doors to heaven for those who believe like this)

If you believe in "free will", then you have to make sure that you "make every effort" to be found blameless before Him.

2PE 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

But we know that obeying God by our own efforts is useless, we will fail. So we have to LET God work in us.
Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

So "make every effort" really means - make every effort to be in the Word, to be close to the Lord, to love Him with all your mind and heart and soul, to make him a priority (in action) -
and God will give you the power to do what He wants and the desire to do his will.

But it's so sad that God is NOT a priority in people's lives (only in words, but not in actions). That seeking the kingdom first is not being done. And as a consequence, there will be many foolish virgins were not ready at his coming.

chestertonrules · Aug 3, 2008

childofGod31 said:
Yes, it is the condition of salvation.
Because Jesus said: not everyone who says to me: Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only He who does the will of My Father.

James said that if you only read the Bible, but don't do what it says, you will deceive yourself (into thinking that you are a Christian).

JAM 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

This applies to everybody.

If you believe in "predestination", then you have to make sure that you see yourself doing the will of God, producing works of faith, and practicing what the Bible teaches. If you don't do these, you are not really saved, right? (and that also would mean that there is no way for you to be saved, because you already invited Jesus into your heart, but He didn't come, right? And so this means - God already made his choice of not choosing you and that means that it's hopeless to try to repent again? Right?) - I believe that whatever I just said above, is the reason that the doctrine of predestination is dangerous and closes the doors to heaven for those who believe like this)

If you believe in "free will", then you have to make sure that you "make every effort" to be found blameless before Him.

2PE 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

But we know that obeying God by our own efforts is useless, we will fail. So we have to LET God work in us.
Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

So "make every effort" really means - make every effort to be in the Word, to be close to the Lord, to love Him with all your mind and heart and soul, to make him a priority (in action) -
and God will give you the power to do what He wants and the desire to do his will.

But it's so sad that God is NOT a priority in people's lives (only in words, but not in actions). That seeking the kingdom first is not being done. And as a consequence, there will be many foolish virgins were not ready at his coming.

Well said!

beloved57 · Aug 3, 2008

If you believe in "predestination", then you have to make sure that you see yourself doing the will of God, producing works of faith, and practicing what the Bible teaches.

God predestines all the works and fruit of the elect as well and causes them to walk in His ways..

eph 2:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

childofGod31 · Aug 3, 2008

beloved57 said:
God predestines all the works and fruit of the elect as well and causes them to walk in His ways..

eph 2:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, God commands us to do good works, it's our duty and we were created for this. But whether we obey Him and do them, is another matter.

If God causes a Christian to walk in his ways without Christian's input, then why do Christians stumble, and have doubts and make wrong choices? Why do some Christians disobey and don't live in love as they should? If God is the one making them do everything, why didn't he do that for them? I wonder.

chestertonrules · Aug 3, 2008

childofGod31 said:
Yes, God commands us to do good works, it's our duty and we were created for this. But whether we obey Him and do them, is another matter.

If God causes a Christian to walk in his ways without Christian's input, then why do Christians stumble, and have doubts and make wrong choices? Why do some Christians disobey and don't live in love as they should? If God is the one making them do everything, why didn't he do that for them? I wonder.

Great question.

I think that God's grace is available to us at all times, but we must choose to utilize it.

When we don't, we fall.

If we continue to fall, we can fall away from God.

He won't leave us, but we can leave him.

nobdysfool · Aug 4, 2008

On the other hand, if we don't have struggles, and setbacks, how would we learn? How would we gain endurance? If, as is falsely postulated by the anti-Calvinists, predestination meant that you could never stumble, never experience hardship, never experience doubt or sin while knowing better, then you misunderstand what any body builder knows, that strength is gained through resistance and endurance training. The body is strengthened through trials, obstacles, and overcoming impediments. So too is faith, and spiritual life. Spiritual growth does not happen in the absence of trials and tribulations. Calvinists fully embrace this truth, and any accusation that they don't is a lie, pure and simple. Predestination does not negate this truth, it establishes it.

In reality, the anti-Calvinists are accusing Calvinists of easy believism, and a form of the so-called "prosperity gospel" of the word of Faith crowd, which is a false accusation. Calvinism rejects easy-believism, as such false doctrine is founded on the notion of free will, and self-determination. Calvinism rejects the prosperity gospel because it is founded on the idea that we can force God to make us rich, and tell God what to do with what is His.

As usual, the anti-Calvinists always fail to hit their target, because they don't even know their target, or what it actually looks like. So, they erect straw men, and make big show about torching them. Smoke and mirrors, is the method of the anti-Calvinists.

calluna · Aug 4, 2008

nobdysfool said:
On the other hand, if we don't have struggles, and setbacks, how would we learn? How would we gain endurance? If, as is falsely postulated by the anti-Calvinists, predestination meant that you could never stumble, never experience hardship, never experience doubt or sin while knowing better, then you misunderstand what any body builder knows, that strength is gained through resistance and endurance training. The body is strengthened through trials, obstacles, and overcoming impediments. So too is faith, and spiritual life. Spiritual growth does not happen in the absence of trials and tribulations. Calvinists fully embrace this truth, and any accusation that they don't is a lie, pure and simple. Predestination does not negate this truth, it establishes it.

But how does the Calvinist know that he is predestined?

nobdysfool · Aug 4, 2008

calluna said:
But how does the Calvinist know that he is predestined?

The short answer is, If you understood what Calvinism teaches, you wouldn't ask that question.

To explain, Because Calvinism teaches that those whom God has predestined unto salvation are those who will hear, believe and obey God's Word, the very fact that they do is evidence of predestination. Keep in mind that inquiring as to who is predestined is searching for an answer outside the revealed Word of God, because God does not give a way, apart from the evidence of their lives, to tell who is and who isn't predestined. It would be much easier if there were an orange stripe on their back, wouldn't it?

The underlying sense of the question sounds like an attitude of, "well, if I can't know in advance, I'm not going to waste my time with it", which from a Calvinists's viewpoint, wouldn't look very positive for predestination. Fortunately, it is not up to our perceptions, or our oversight, or our judgment. Those whom God has predestined to salvation will come in the fullness of time, at the time He has appointed. Until that time, there is nothing to distinguish them from mankind as a whole, no special mark that man can see that identifies them as predestined, but not yet saved. God knows who are ultimately His. We don't.

So, the answer to your question is really that it is not a legitimate question, because No Christian is saved on the basis of their perception of being predestined, nor on the perception of anyone else believing they personally are predestined.

To God, predestination is the view forward, as He has ordained it. To man, predestination is only seen in retrospect, after the fact.

What if we don't PRACTICE what Jesus PREACHED?

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