What I don't understand about the arguement for Abortion.

William II said:

I don't believe that it's the governments responsibility to regulate your personal life or what you put in/do to your body. Is abortion right? No. I sure as hell wouldn't get one, but I'm not everybody.

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But it is the government's responsibility to protect all Human Beings.

So you think abortion is wrong and you wouldn't want to kill your unborn child, but you have no problem with anyone else killing their unborn child.

Well, what do you want him to do? Observe everybody at the same time and force them not to get abortions? There's something called pragmatism. In a perfect world maybe we would be able to reach out to people and change their hearts and minds and then they wouldn't have abortions; maybe we would have better social programs able to help women who feel that they have to have abortions--programs could help women see that there's another option as many of them don't.

The fact of the matter is that not every woman can be stopped from having an abortion--even if it were illegal. And if women are going to have abortion whether the law is legal or not I would rather that she have the ability to have it done safely and the only way that an abortion can be done safely is if it's legal. In my estimation it prevents a greater evil--it prevents women from attempting to perform abortions on themselves or going to some "person they heard of's" back alley or to that shabby little office near the edge of town.

I've heard the stories of how things were back then and I certainly don't get the impression that they were prolife. I've read enough about women from different parts of the world who have to give themselves abortions because they don't have enough food to eat and they themselves are starving--terrible stories. It just doesn't seem better to me.

We want to have the debate as to the morality of abortions? We don't need to, we already agree--We don't like it.

Now, as to the legality of abortion--a separate issue altogether--tell me why I shouldn't care about the woman's life in the situation at all. Tell me why I shouldn't consider what her life might be if abortion is illegal. Tell me why I shouldn't care if she tries to perform an abortion on herself and dies? Convince me of this and then maybe, if your reasons are good enough, I'll change my mind.

William II said:

I don't believe that it's the governments responsibility to regulate your personal life or what you put in/do to your body. Is abortion right? No. I sure as hell wouldn't get one, but I'm not everybody.

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Murder is wrong too, but would you ever suggest for one minute it is a matter of personal choice?

Beren Erchamion said:

Neither does abortion.

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If a fetus is not a life - what did Jesus mean when He said 'I knew you before you were born.'

SharonL said:

If a fetus is not a life - what did Jesus mean when He said 'I knew you before you were born.'

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I always thought that he was referring to our souls. Regardless, there are instances discussed already where the Bible prescribes abortion. I agree with you that abortion is wrong, but the Bible is useless in justifying any moral position since the slaughter of infants born and not is sanctioned by God in instances of war and there is at least one point where the Bible sanctions what we ourselves would consider an abortion.

FrancesJames09 said:

Well, what do you want him to do? Observe everybody at the same time and force them not to get abortions? There's something called pragmatism. In a perfect world maybe we would be able to reach out to people and change their hearts and minds and then they wouldn't have abortions; maybe we would have better social programs able to help women who feel that they have to have abortions--programs could help women see that there's another option as many of them don't.

The fact of the matter is that not every woman can be stopped from having an abortion--even if it were illegal. And if women are going to have abortion whether the law is legal or not I would rather that she have the ability to have it done safely and the only way that an abortion can be done safely is if it's legal. In my estimation it prevents a greater evil--it prevents women from attempting to perform abortions on themselves or going to some "person they heard of's" back alley or to that shabby little office near the edge of town.

I've heard the stories of how things were back then and I certainly don't get the impression that they were prolife. I've read enough about women from different parts of the world who have to give themselves abortions because they don't have enough food to eat and they themselves are starving--terrible stories. It just doesn't seem better to me.

We want to have the debate as to the morality of abortions? We don't need to, we already agree--We don't like it.

Now, as to the legality of abortion--a separate issue altogether--tell me why I shouldn't care about the woman's life in the situation at all. Tell me why I shouldn't consider what her life might be if abortion is illegal. Tell me why I shouldn't care if she tries to perform an abortion on herself and dies? Convince me of this and then maybe, if your reasons are good enough, I'll change my mind.

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So you are saying that since we are not in a perfect world we should not reach out to people and try to change their heart and minds?

Of corse not every abortion can be stopped, but if people realize that every abortion kills an innocent Human Being then fewer abortion would occur.

The debate as to the morality of abortion is not that "we don't like it", it is that abortion is wrong and immoral.

By the way, when abortion was illegal far fewer women were performing abortions on themselves then we might believe. And why would you care more for the life of the mother than the life of the unborn? Shouldn't they both be considered special and protect them equally?

FrancesJames09 said:

I always thought that he was referring to our souls. Regardless, there are instances discussed already where the Bible prescribes abortion. I agree with you that abortion is wrong, but the Bible is useless in justifying any moral position since the slaughter of infants born and not is sanctioned by God in instances of war and there is at least one point where the Bible sanctions what we ourselves would consider an abortion.

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Just to bring everyone up to speed. The one point, that you are talking about, where the bible "sanctions" an abortion is in fact performed by God through a priest. Not by a doctor or anyone else.

TomZzyzx said:

Just to bring everyone up to speed. The one point, that you are talking about, where the bible "sanctions" an abortion is in fact performed by God through a priest. Not by a doctor or anyone else.

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Correction: not God but through a priest; a priest acting on a man's suspicion of his wife's infidelity. An infusion of rue, which is what this potion was, would cause a miscarriage. God has nothing to do with it, I thin. I don’t see how making a pregnant woman consume a potion made of rue would result in anything but a miscarriage unless she were lucky and the ratio of rue/ water were off. This “dust” that is mentioned is rue powder, rue itself having often been brought before the altar.

TomZzyzx said:

So you are saying that since we are not in a perfect world we should not reach out to people and try to change their heart and minds?

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Nope. Go back and read what I said. I never said, “Don’t bother trying to change hearts and minds,” what I said was that since you can’t stop people from having abortions even though you do your best to change their minds. In those instances, it’s either have it be legal and let them do it safely (legally) or make it illegal and let them take their chances doing it themselves.

TomZzyzx said:

Of corse not every abortion can be stopped, but if people realize that every abortion kills an innocent Human Being then fewer abortion would occur.

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This is not necessarily true. Almost all the women I’ve spoken to who have had abortions have said they felt that they were killing their child—a human being—but that they felt that they couldn’t make any other choice. That being said, the abortion rates in this country compared with those in other countries (read countries without legalised abortion) is much lower.

TomZzyzx said:

The debate as to the morality of abortion is not that "we don't like it", it is that abortion is wrong and immoral.

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Right, but I guess I just presumed, and wrongly so for that and I do apologise, that you based your moral position on the Bible. You can’t use the Bible for a prolife stance, unless you ignore a lot, since in certain instances God sanctions abortion. Not only that, but in times of war, God seems perfectly alright with the notion of taking children’s lives, even those in the womb.


[FONT=&quot]Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 13:18 (New Living Translation) — “[/FONT]The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for children.”

At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women[FONT=&quot].[/FONT] (2 Kings 15:16)



I guess what we see here is that life is only precious and innocent if it’s on our side. I think that Jesus does a lot for the pro-life movement by talking about love off all people, that doesn’t take away the bad parts of the Bible, too. What would you take away from these passages? Abortion is okay as long as the woman is an adulteress or as long as she belongs to an enemy? So priests can make concoctions of powder and armies can rip open pregnant women, but a doctor in a sterile room can’t perform an abortion to keep a woman from making an even more drastic decision?

TomZzyzx said:

By the way, when abortion was illegal far fewer women were performing abortions on themselves then we might believe.

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I’m not sure whether that’s true or not. Since abortion was illegal in those days there are no statistics that we could use to compare. My mother’s a child of the forties and seems to remember that it happened to women she knew.

TomZzyzx said:

And why would you care more for the life of the mother than the life of the unborn? Shouldn't they both be considered special and protect them equally?

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Of course you should, I never said otherwise. What I’m talking about is that one woman who is going to have an abortion whose mind is made up and whom you can’t stop. She is going to have the abortion. You have two choices ahead of you: One, abortion is legalised so she can have it done safely; two, she takes her chances and performs an abortion on herself or has her friend do it or whatever.

Which of these two choices do you prefer?

[FONT=&quot]This is a realistic scenario since in reality, you cannot stop a woman from having an abortion: whether it’s legal or illegal women will be having them.[/FONT]

FrancesJames09 said:

Correction: not God but through a priest; a priest acting on a man's suspicion of his wife's infidelity. An infusion of rue, which is what this potion was, would cause a miscarriage. God has nothing to do with it, I thin. I don't see how making a pregnant woman consume a potion made of rue would result in anything but a miscarriage unless she were lucky and the ratio of rue/ water were off. This "dust" that is mentioned is rue powder, rue itself having often been brought before the altar.

Nope. Go back and read what I said. I never said, "Don't bother trying to change hearts and minds," what I said was that since you can't stop people from having abortions even though you do your best to change their minds. In those instances, it's either have it be legal and let them do it safely (legally) or make it illegal and let them take their chances doing it themselves.

This is not necessarily true. Almost all the women I've spoken to who have had abortions have said they felt that they were killing their child--a human being--but that they felt that they couldn't make any other choice. That being said, the abortion rates in this country compared with those in other countries (read countries without legalised abortion) is much lower.

Right, but I guess I just presumed, and wrongly so for that and I do apologise, that you based your moral position on the Bible. You can't use the Bible for a prolife stance, unless you ignore a lot, since in certain instances God sanctions abortion. Not only that, but in times of war, God seems perfectly alright with the notion of taking children's lives, even those in the womb.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Isaiah 13:18 (New Living Translation) -- "The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for children."

At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)

I guess what we see here is that life is only precious and innocent if it's on our side. I think that Jesus does a lot for the pro-life movement by talking about love off all people, that doesn't take away the bad parts of the Bible, too. What would you take away from these passages? Abortion is okay as long as the woman is an adulteress or as long as she belongs to an enemy? So priests can make concoctions of powder and armies can rip open pregnant women, but a doctor in a sterile room can't perform an abortion to keep a woman from making an even more drastic decision?

I'm not sure whether that's true or not. Since abortion was illegal in those days there are no statistics that we could use to compare. My mother's a child of the forties and seems to remember that it happened to women she knew.

Of course you should, I never said otherwise. What I'm talking about is that one woman who is going to have an abortion whose mind is made up and whom you can't stop. She is going to have the abortion. You have two choices ahead of you: One, abortion is legalised so she can have it done safely; two, she takes her chances and performs an abortion on herself or has her friend do it or whatever.

Which of these two choices do you prefer?

This is a realistic scenario since in reality, you cannot stop a woman from having an abortion: whether it's legal or illegal women will be having them.

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To agree that abortion is wrong but necessary to protect the mother from the dangers of a self performed abortion totally disregards the fact that an innocent life is being taken in the process. Either it is wrong or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

mathetes123 said:

To agree that abortion is wrong but necessary to protect the mother from the dangers of a self performed abortion totally disregards the fact that an innocent life is being taken in the process. Either it is wrong or it is not. You cannot have it both ways.

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No it doesn't. Not in my view. Because that is something that I am considering. But what can I do about it? What can you do about it?

But let's run your scenario: abortion is illegal for every person, but, as in times past, whether legal or illegal, women are having abortions but are now having them in back alleys and with doctors who probably won't have the proper equipment to perform the procedure. Say a woman dies from this: it doesn't make you feel good that she dies, but at least abortion is illegal, right?

Let's say somebody you know has an abortion and is hospitalised because of an infection resulting from the use of non-sterile tools: at least abortion is illegal.

There are countless of scenarios and many of them might not look so good for the mother: but at least abortion is illegal.

I'm not ignoring the fact that a child's life is taken since of course that is the very center of the meaning of the word abortion, and I don't like that you characterise me as unfeeling.

I'm simply backed into a corner and I see a situation where a mother is risking her child's life and in many instances the issue can be boiled down to her killing her child or her risking herself and killing her child.

There is no situation where this ends up looking good for the child because the illegality of abortion seems to augment the abortion rates in some countries; but at the very least I can stem the harm that is done to the mother.

then its necessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies at the beginning ....and abstinence does not work that,,its different from being celibate...often the concept of absitence is forced upon young people without giving the value of what celibacy really is. Abstinence pretty well is forcing people to be almost devoid of any sexual feelings or actions while celibacy is more of a loving personal choice....we have to stop making women feel hurt while others impose rules on them and that makes them even more risky. Being celibate is a choice obviously but its a loving choice and one can still be "sexual" and celibate,,because it comes from love not from guilt. If we made women value themselves where sex is not something to have because everyone else is having it we wouldn't have as many issues. Men are guilty in this too. after all sperm and egg make a baby so men need to help to in this way. My exbf had a vesectomy which at the time was a very honourable thing to do. The more we prevent pregnancies from happening ( wether Birth control is involved or not as i understand some of views) the lesser of this problem. Praise the girl for not having sex rather than making them feel pressured. I didnt have sex until I was 26. What are families doing to tell girls that its ok not to have sex until much later ( and bringing fundamentalist scripture is not going to make things better,,,) ?

FrancesJames09 said:

Correction: not God but through a priest; a priest acting on a man's suspicion of his wife's infidelity. An infusion of rue, which is what this potion was, would cause a miscarriage. God has nothing to do with it, I thin. I don't see how making a pregnant woman consume a potion made of rue would result in anything but a miscarriage unless she were lucky and the ratio of rue/ water were off. This "dust" that is mentioned is rue powder, rue itself having often been brought before the altar.

Nope. Go back and read what I said. I never said, "Don't bother trying to change hearts and minds," what I said was that since you can't stop people from having abortions even though you do your best to change their minds. In those instances, it's either have it be legal and let them do it safely (legally) or make it illegal and let them take their chances doing it themselves.

This is not necessarily true. Almost all the women I've spoken to who have had abortions have said they felt that they were killing their child--a human being--but that they felt that they couldn't make any other choice. That being said, the abortion rates in this country compared with those in other countries (read countries without legalised abortion) is much lower.

Right, but I guess I just presumed, and wrongly so for that and I do apologise, that you based your moral position on the Bible. You can't use the Bible for a prolife stance, unless you ignore a lot, since in certain instances God sanctions abortion. Not only that, but in times of war, God seems perfectly alright with the notion of taking children's lives, even those in the womb.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Isaiah 13:18 (New Living Translation) -- "The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for children."

At that time Menahem, starting out from Tirzah, attacked Tiphsah and everyone in the city and its vicinity, because they refused to open their gates. He sacked Tiphsah and ripped open all the pregnant women. (2 Kings 15:16)

I guess what we see here is that life is only precious and innocent if it's on our side. I think that Jesus does a lot for the pro-life movement by talking about love off all people, that doesn't take away the bad parts of the Bible, too. What would you take away from these passages? Abortion is okay as long as the woman is an adulteress or as long as she belongs to an enemy? So priests can make concoctions of powder and armies can rip open pregnant women, but a doctor in a sterile room can't perform an abortion to keep a woman from making an even more drastic decision?

I'm not sure whether that's true or not. Since abortion was illegal in those days there are no statistics that we could use to compare. My mother's a child of the forties and seems to remember that it happened to women she knew.

Of course you should, I never said otherwise. What I'm talking about is that one woman who is going to have an abortion whose mind is made up and whom you can't stop. She is going to have the abortion. You have two choices ahead of you: One, abortion is legalised so she can have it done safely; two, she takes her chances and performs an abortion on herself or has her friend do it or whatever.

Which of these two choices do you prefer?

This is a realistic scenario since in reality, you cannot stop a woman from having an abortion: whether it's legal or illegal women will be having them.

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Let's throw some corrections your way. First, Numbers 5:11 & 12 says "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them..." Which tells us that God is speaking to Israel, and what He is about to say is for Israel alone. Second, Numbers 5:21 says "The LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, by the LORD'S making your thigh waste away, and your abdomen swell;" Now who is causing this to happen to the woman? Not the priest, but God.

Yes, priests can make concoctions of powder (if commanded by God) and armies can rip open pregnant women (if commanded by God), but a doctor in a sterile room can't perform an abortion (unless commanded by God). These people didn't kill on there own, they were commanded to by God.

God killing people in the Old Testament, whether it's the unborn or not has nothing to do with us thinking it is ok for us to do the same. God does not sanction abortions. God creates life and He can take it away, at any time, for any reason. We, on the other hand are never told, in the Bible, to perform abortions.

I would choose and advocate the third choice, have the baby and give it up for adoption. No one harmed and no one killed.

TomZzyzx said:

Let's throw some corrections your way. First, Numbers 5:11 & 12 says "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them..." Which tells us that God is speaking to Israel, and what He is about to say is for Israel alone. Second, Numbers 5:21 says "The LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, by the LORD'S making your thigh waste away, and your abdomen swell;" Now who is causing this to happen to the woman? Not the priest, but God.

Yes, priests can make concoctions of powder (if commanded by God) and armies can rip open pregnant women (if commanded by God), but a doctor in a sterile room can't perform an abortion (unless commanded by God). These people didn't kill on there own, they were commanded to by God.

God killing people in the Old Testament, whether it's the unborn or not has nothing to do with us thinking it is ok for us to do the same. God does not sanction abortions. God creates life and He can take it away, at any time, for any reason. We, on the other hand are never told, in the Bible, to perform abortions.

I would choose and advocate the third choice, have the baby and give it up for adoption. No one harmed and no one killed.

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and so many families would love to have a baby. I am sterile because of Early Menopause(due to genes alone ). I would love to adopt a baby <3 <3 <3 and start a family <3 <3

TomZzyzx said:

Let's throw some corrections your way. First, Numbers 5:11 & 12 says "Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them..." Which tells us that God is speaking to Israel, and what He is about to say is for Israel alone. Second, Numbers 5:21 says "The LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, by the LORD'S making your thigh waste away, and your abdomen swell;" Now who is causing this to happen to the woman? Not the priest, but God.

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But if God were the one doing it, we wouldn't need the potion.

TomZzyzx said:

Yes, priests can make concoctions of powder (if commanded by God) and armies can rip open pregnant women (if commanded by God), but a doctor in a sterile room can't perform an abortion (unless commanded by God). These people didn't kill on there own, they were commanded to by God.

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This . . . this isn't better. How is a woman to discern the voice of God here? How is a man? How is anybody? The situation is an abhorrent one. I dreamt of God doing good things for humanity but I never imagined things like this. If God can allow these things to happen then how are you to know whether a woman having an abortion isn't being led by God? Not that I think it's a good thing since all of the instances here mentioned look ugly. I know enough about myself to know that I think abortion is wrong but I have the wisdom to see that there isn't really a precursor to a notion of God's unilateral dislike of the murder of children in the Bible since He Himself seems to have ordered it many times.

TomZzyzx said:

God killing people in the Old Testament, whether it's the unborn or not has nothing to do with us thinking it is ok for us to do the same.

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But it does get to your underlying argument (and sorry if I'm presuming here) which is that God unilaterally disaproves of the murder of children whether in the womb or not. This makes room for an interpretation.

TomZzyzx said:

God does not sanction abortions.

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Unless in times of war or in cases of adultery.

TomZzyzx said:

God creates life and He can take it away, at any time, for any reason. We, on the other hand are never told, in the Bible, to perform abortions.

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Unless in times of war or in cases of adultery.

TomZzyzx said:

I would choose and advocate the third choice, have the baby and give it up for adoption. No one harmed and no one killed.

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So would I, but what about for that one woman whose mind is made up and who will have the abortion, far away, and whose mind you cannot change? You advocate and council adoption but she won't listen--what then? Should she go to a doctor or take her chances?

FrancesJames09 said:

But if God were the one doing it, we wouldn't need the potion.

This . . . this isn't better. How is a woman to discern the voice of God here? How is a man? How is anybody? The situation is an abhorrent one. I dreamt of God doing good things for humanity but I never imagined things like this. If God can allow these things to happen then how are you to know whether a woman having an abortion isn't being led by God? Not that I think it's a good thing since all of the instances here mentioned look ugly. I know enough about myself to know that I think abortion is wrong but I have the wisdom to see that there isn't really a precursor to a notion of God's unilateral dislike of the murder of children in the Bible since He Himself seems to have ordered it many times.

But it does get to your underlying argument (and sorry if I'm presuming here) which is that God unilaterally disaproves of the murder of children whether in the womb or not. This makes room for an interpretation.

Unless in times of war or in cases of adultery.

Unless in times of war or in cases of adultery.

So would I, but what about for that one woman whose mind is made up and who will have the abortion, far away, and whose mind you cannot change? You advocate and council adoption but she won't listen--what then? Should she go to a doctor or take her chances?

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So even thou the bible said God did it, you still don't believe God did it.

"How is a woman to discern the voice of God here?" Because God is telling this to Moses and Israel believed Moses spoke for God. This is not how it happens today.

I don't think it is a good idea to say God sanctions abortion by reading that God does take some unborn lives. By that same reasoning we could falsely say God sanctions killing by reading in the Bible that He takes some lives.

A forum for liberal Christians of all denominations. That's so refreshing to read.

This is a weighty topic obviously. What I'll say on the subject is simply this. I believe all things happen according to God's plan and will. And I accept what Jesus said when he taught that God's kingdom is alive in each and every person.
As such, no thing that happens can be anything but God's will. And I think when God watches the human race unfold according to his plan for it, that what he judges is how we treat what is sacred in one another who are alive here and now.
And when we murder in the name of pro-life. And when we oppress in the name of God's will, he see's that too.

The sin of pride thinking our will must be obeyed by others not ourselves, is something else he see's. And I think if God prays, he prays we learn from those mistakes and trust him. The great all knowing creator of all that is and all that happens.

Even those spontaneous abortions that occur by God's will. All these generations after God drowned the planet for it's sins, and left but 9 people in the same family to give birth to the future generations of newborn sinners who even then awaited the coming of Jesus.

How we treat one another in the light of God's will, is what I think God judges. While what we do by our own choice can't surprise the architect of all that is.

Perhaps, all it can do is make him understand why we needed saving in the first place.

TomZzyzx said:

So even thou the bible said God did it, you still don't believe God did it.

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Even though the Bible says the potion did it, you still don't believe the potion did it?

I say that with an air of flippancy a bit because it's an odd question to put to somebody. Just because something is in accord with God's will doesn't mean that it doesn't require action on our part. The situation that is described in that account could not have come about without the potion. God can abort a foetus any time He wants, but He didn't: other wise He never would have allowed the woman to conceive in the first place.

I see the taking of the potion and then God causing her thigh to fall away in the same way that I could say I was sick and took a medicine and God caused my fever to go away. I don't deny that it was the power of the medicine that made me better or God was there too, but without the medicine I probably wouldn't have gotten better. I suppose it's the same for this abortion-causing concoction if you really wanna go that rout.

However, if we do, there's no reason to think that God might not be working through an abortion doctor either. Not everything's spelled out in the Bible. Sometimes we just have to take our best guess. God never says, "Don't have an abortion." Maybe there are certain things He says that make us think He would be against it, but then again, there are things that sometimes make Him look for it in some cases.

TomZzyzx said:

"How is a woman to discern the voice of God here?" Because God is telling this to Moses and Israel believed Moses spoke for God. This is not how it happens today.

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It doesn't matter; in legal terms, this is what we would call a precedent.

TomZzyzx said:

I don't think it is a good idea to say God sanctions abortion by reading that God does take some unborn lives. By that same reasoning we could falsely say God sanctions killing by reading in the Bible that He takes some lives.

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I'm not reading that God sanctions abortions. But it does get at the notion of what it means to believe that all life is sacred. Clearly, as we have seen by God's own testimony as witnessed in the Bible--not all life is so sacred that it cannot be taken.

There is nothing in the Bible that you could bring up that would counter these instances of mercilessness toward the unborn.

But then again, if I am expected by you to understand that the Bible verses which I quoted were meant for specific instances, there is no reason why the verses quoted by people who are pro-choice might not also have been meant for specific instances--that maybe they weren't meant to be taken for use in a pro-life stance any more than mine could be taken as evidence of a pro-choice stance, here following the notion of "the sword cuts both ways."

TomZzyzx said:

As far as I know vaccinations and chemotherapy do not kill Human Beings. So you would be incorrect.

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Water will kill you if you drink enough of it. With Chemotherapy, the trick is to kill the cancer before the chemo kills you. Chemo, most assuredly, can kill human beings.