What homophobia does

Wednesday · Dec 17, 2007

As far as I am concerned most homophobes have to be latent gays. I mean look at Fred Phelps, he is clearly in the closet.

What bothers me is the fact that some Christians (I'm not generalizing) are way too preoccupied with other people's sexuality. Fundamentalists (like Fred Phelps) who only talk about gay sex, gay marriage "gay agenda",

Apollo Celestio · Dec 17, 2007

Catherineanne said:
Don't you just love literally minded people?

In my mind the term gay souls is just shorthand for souls of gay people in eternity.

Certainly our gender will have a meaning in heaven. We will still be male and female, and we will retain our character, and a lot of that character is to do with who we are, and our orientation. You may not agree, but I cannot see how we can enter eternity and be less than we now are. Surely we will be who we are and more.

Meanwhile, as Christ tells us, we will not have sexual relations, but live as the angels do.

Lord, have mercy!

We may or may not, I don't know, because we will no longer sin. I don't believe in "gay souls", there are "redeemed sinners" and "condemned sinners". :/

Catherineanne · Dec 17, 2007

Ishida said:
We may or may not, I don't know, because we will no longer sin. I don't believe in "gay souls", there are "redeemed sinners" and "condemned sinners". :/

You are making too much of an offhand phrase, like a dog worrying at a bone.

I have explained what I meant, and I suggest you get over it and move on. Life is too short to worry about other people's terminology.

Apollo Celestio · Dec 17, 2007

Catherineanne said:
You are making too much of an offhand phrase, like a dog worrying at a bone.

I have explained what I meant, and I suggest you get over it and move on. Life is too short to worry about other people's terminology.

As you wish.

plmarquette · Dec 17, 2007

I am the fat kid no one picked for sports
I am the clutz that no one wanted to be around
I am the geek with the pocket protector
I am a middle class white male , the butt of all jokes
I am a believer that God exists & Jesus died on the cross

brother ... we all have situations, circumstances, and hateful things in our past ...

we either lay them at the foot of the cross and go forward ... knowing that each day might be better worse or the same as the one before ...

it is not so much the words, actions, or surroundings but our self image and those we choose to surround ourselves with .... to undo those hateful words and deeds..

the only way to be free of the past is to forgive and pray for those very people -- romans 12.18-21 ; matthew 18.19-21

spinningtutu · Dec 18, 2007

plmarquette said:
we either lay them at the foot of the cross and go forward ... knowing that each day might be better worse or the same as the one before ...

Homophobia (or, shall I say, heterosexism?) must be dealt with through the cross, like all other evils. The problem is that for many of us who have spent their entire lives being targetted by heterosexism, we've also been brainwashed (by churches) into believing that the cross wasn't meant for us.

plmarquette · Dec 19, 2007

:paxigoth: said:
Homophobia (or, shall I say, heterosexism?) must be dealt with through the cross, like all other evils. The problem is that for many of us who have spent their entire lives being targetted by heterosexism, we've also been brainwashed (by churches) into believing that the cross wasn't meant for us.

the book says " who so ever"... "all can be forgiven"...no matter how serious ... will be " washed white as snow"..

I object to this decade's spin " I am not responsible for my life & I am a victim of some one else's hate, rudeness, or activity syndrome"

There are mean spirited gays, lesbians, straight, bi, transgendered, etc. etc. etc... who seek revenge on others for what was done to them .... the book says forgive and pray for them ... Matthew 18.21 ; Romans 12.18-21 .... as we forgive, so are we forgiven...

that mean spirit .... evil spirit .... is doing back flips of joy playing us , one against the other , year after year after year...

we need to accept one another, agree that we disagree, go forward , and leave those who do not desire peace behind.... perhaps some one will touch them with an act of compassion, grace, mercy and they too will be set free and start their journey ...

an offense , anger, hate of any kind is fly paper... like the briar rabbit and the tar baby ... the madder we get the worse we become entangled in the trap ... but Jesus can set us free if we permit him to ...

catlover · Dec 19, 2007

plmarquette said:
I am the fat kid no one picked for sports
I am the clutz that no one wanted to be around
I am the geek with the pocket protector
I am a middle class white male , the butt of all jokes
I am a believer that God exists & Jesus died on the cross

brother ... we all have situations, circumstances, and hateful things in our past ...

we either lay them at the foot of the cross and go forward ... knowing that each day might be better worse or the same as the one before ...

it is not so much the words, actions, or surroundings but our self image and those we choose to surround ourselves with .... to undo those hateful words and deeds..

the only way to be free of the past is to forgive and pray for those very people -- romans 12.18-21 ; matthew 18.19-21

Why undermine a marginilized populations pain?

Has anyone wanted to physically assault you because you are a white middle class male?

Do people state you DESERVE a disease because of your "life style"??

D.W.Washburn · Dec 19, 2007

Let me tell y'all what it's like
Being male, middle class and white.
It's a *****, if you don't believe.
Listen up to my new CD.

--Ben Folds, Rockin' the Suburbs

Xen_Antares · Dec 19, 2007

BAFRIEND said:
Mathew Shepherd was killed because he sexaully assaulted one of those straight men while negotiating sex for drugs (prostitution). Let's get our facts straight.

It is the gay lifestyle, not homophobia responsible for these things. Sin has a cost to it.

Peace.

Oh yeah!

Well since thems the rules, maybe women who are being hit on by men they find unattractive or have no intrest in should start killing them.

*hopes next woman I hit on doesnt decide to try this new lil rule out*

spinningtutu · Dec 19, 2007

plmarquette said:
the book says " who so ever"... "all can be forgiven"...no matter how serious ... will be " washed white as snow"..

I object to this decade's spin " I am not responsible for my life & I am a victim of some one else's hate, rudeness, or activity syndrome"

There are mean spirited gays, lesbians, straight, bi, transgendered, etc. etc. etc... who seek revenge on others for what was done to them .... the book says forgive and pray for them ... Matthew 18.21 ; Romans 12.18-21 .... as we forgive, so are we forgiven...

that mean spirit .... evil spirit .... is doing back flips of joy playing us , one against the other , year after year after year...

we need to accept one another, agree that we disagree, go forward , and leave those who do not desire peace behind.... perhaps some one will touch them with an act of compassion, grace, mercy and they too will be set free and start their journey ...

an offense , anger, hate of any kind is fly paper... like the briar rabbit and the tar baby ... the madder we get the worse we become entangled in the trap ... but Jesus can set us free if we permit him to ...

Oh yes... well, I did say that homophobia (etc) had to be dealt with through the cross. If you read what I said carefully, I was _not_ saying that LGBT people do not play a part in the responsibility of healing. However, I was saying that the Church makes it harder by how they get treated... harder, not impossible.

Structural evil/ personal responsibility is 50/50 IMHO.

Xen_Antares · Dec 19, 2007

:paxigoth: said:
Oh yes... well, I did say that homophobia (etc) had to be dealt with through the cross. If you read what I said carefully, I was _not_ saying that LGBT people do not play a part in the responsibility of healing. However, I was saying that the Church makes it harder by how they get treated... harder, not impossible.

Structural evil/ personal responsibility is 50/50 IMHO.

Which is one reason why I find the church to be problematic at best. Too often churches tend to believe they are an elite group of people, that they are so right, and everyone else needs their guidance, and only by embracing their beliefs will one be saved. So many people believe things so differently and are so convinced they are right....

Christians tend to forget they still sin, which is a problem I have with anti-homosexual churches. If they believe its a sin, I wont argue, I am aware two people can see the same thing and see it totally different, however their sins are no lesser or greater. I seriously doubt God looks at an anti-homosexual church and proudly says these are my people, they make the sins I like.

UberLutheran · Dec 19, 2007

Seriously what homophobia does, when someone who is gay is around it (a lot)?

Homophobia makes me extremely leery of fundamentalists and conservative Christians who may actually be extremely nice (and very accepting) people and I've met some like that; but after a few decades of being on the receiving end of "loving the sinner and hating the sin" which was anything but loving (with a great emphasis on hating) I'm not inclined to give the benefit of the doubt until that person can prove they're trustworthy.

I wish it weren't that way. I wish I could give them the benefit of the doubt, which I would do to most non-fundamentalists or non-conservative Christians but that's long gone.

Homophobia makes it extremely difficult for me to hear what a fundamentalist or a conservative Christian has to say. After having Scripture lessons for the day changed to the all-too-well-known "bullet" passages (Leviticus 18, 20; Romans 1; 1 Corinthians 5, 6; Galatians 5, etc.) when someone tipped off the minister that a queer was in the audience; and after having restaurant dinners interrupted by the evangelical at the next table who didn't think people like my partner and me should be allowed to eat at the table next to him based on his interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5 and who made no bones about making his thoughts clear to everyone in the room (and was genuinely surprised when I turned around and put him right in his place!) I expect the worst. It's nice when I'm surprised and I encounter fundamentalists or conservative Christians who are truly genuine and will let me get a word in edgewise instead of telling me all about my "lifestyle" (which I think is actually pretty boring!). Unfortunately, I'm not surprised very often.

Homophobia makes me really dismissive of fundamentalists and conservative Christians when they tell me that I must have had thousands of sex partners because the Family Research Council or the American Family Association said so; or that I have "gay bowel disease" (I had an infected rectal hernia which developed from severe bouts of constipation in the 80s and 90s, but I don't think that counts as "gay bowel disease"; or I must have HIV; or that my life expectancy is 40 years (in which case, why the hell am I 53 and HIV-negative). Interesting: my stepbrother (who is straight) has pretty much singlehandedly repopulated a county in Indiana which didn't have a problem with population decline to begin with, and he could never make enough to pay child support the ten women he got pregnant because he couldn't be bothered to wear a condom. To think: ten children, all by different mothers. Must be interesting: to think my stepbrother has had nearly twice the number of partners in 10 years that I've had in 34 years but you won't see the AFA or the FRC or fundamentalists or conservative Christians throwing hissy fits about that because my stepbrother is straight.

I'm sure there are some very nice, very decent conservative Christians and/or fundamentalists but after 45 years of homophobia (since I realized I was gay when I was 8, back in 1962) it has become very difficult for me to let my guard down to get to know them and that's yet another result of homophobia.

And I'll bet you I'm not the only gay man, or lesbian or for that matter, liberal Christian, Wiccan, atheist, agnostic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist who feels that way.

desmalia · Dec 19, 2007

UL, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I do find it unfortunate that you have developed such a broad brush opinion of people such as myself. None the less, I appreciate your honesty.

Izdaari Eristikon · Dec 19, 2007

UL, you know what I find funny about that? It's that you yourself are a pretty conservative Christian when it comes to theology... as am I. But you're not leary of yourself. Understandably I guess... you know yourself better than that.

UberLutheran · Dec 19, 2007

desmalia said:
UL, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I do find it unfortunate that you have developed such a broad brush opinion of people such as myself. None the less, I appreciate your honesty.

And that's the thing you might be (and probably are) a very nice person.

And looming right over my shoulder are the ever-present ghosts of the truly evil pastor of the fundamentalist church in which I grew up and several people from that church who shunned me (and continue to do so) after I came out 38 years ago; as well as several people from Debates on Homosexuality.

UberLutheran · Dec 20, 2007

Izdaari said:
UL, you know what I find funny about that? It's that you yourself are a pretty conservative Christian when it comes to theology... as am I. But you're not leary of yourself. Understandably I guess... you know yourself better than that.

HUH???

Go ahead and explain (and I'm not trying to put you on the spot or to "bait" you). Evidently you see something I don't.

(Remember: according to my family of origin, I'm going to Hell because I'm a Lutheran, not because I'm gay.)

Izdaari Eristikon · Dec 20, 2007

UberLutheran said:
HUH???

Go ahead and explain (and I'm not trying to put you on the spot or to "bait" you). Evidently you see something I don't.

(Remember: according to my family of origin, I'm going to Hell because I'm a Lutheran, not because I'm gay.)

Well, I've noticed that whenever you talk about your Lutheranism, you come off as pretty theologically conservative. You insist on the Real Presence for example. I bet there isn't very much in C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" that you don't agree with... and Lewis is generally considered pretty conservative, in an Anglican sort of way. And as per your thread, it actually is sort of plausible that had you been there instead of Martin Luther, you could've lead the Reformation. It's true that you're socially and politically liberal, but that's not theology... though many fundies seem to have that all mixed up.

WolvesChristian · Dec 20, 2007

I am gay and I have suffered homophobia. When I first became a Christian I was drawn into the conservative, anti-gay school of thought and I kept thinking that there was something wrong with me.

It has taken me a long time to realise that God loves me no matter what, and that His love is above all things.

LawsonAlan · Dec 20, 2007

WolvesChristian said:
I am gay and I have suffered homophobia. When I first became a Christian I was drawn into the conservative, anti-gay school of thought and I kept thinking that there was something wrong with me.

It has taken me a long time to realise that God loves me no matter what, and that His love is above all things.

Awesome!

You're very correct.

What homophobia does

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sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays

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