Why not? If your response indicates that your map doesn´t allow for an accurate representation of my ideas (as depicted on my map) - how is that not noteworthy?
Are you in competition mode, by any chance?
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Why not? If your response indicates that your map doesn´t allow for an accurate representation of my ideas (as depicted on my map) - how is that not noteworthy?I wouldn't be too quick to comment on the limitations of other people's maps, when you know for a fact that you can't find one without your own.
Why not? If your response indicates that your map doesn´t allow for an accurate representation of my ideas (as depicted on my map) - how is that not noteworthy?
Are you in competition mode, by any chance?
What is just a fact?It's just a fact.
Then I don´t know how to take your "I wouldn´t...if..." statement.I have reservations, but the idea of competition is purely your projection.
If you were presented with strong evidence that somebody close to you had been a serial killer before you met them, I am pretty sure you would do everything you could to avoid having to believe that evidence.
The same goes for a scientist with a strong emotional investment in a theory he had spent years developing, but now looking increasingly unlikely to be true.
The naivete of atheists who think they are dispassionate logic engines never ceases to amaze me.
What gives a belief value? Or, what makes a belief valuable?
I can't think of any beliefs I hold that I wouldn't immediately abandon in the face of evidence to the contrary....save one. That belief is...truth allows me to make better choices, better decisions, and is a better guide in my life than falsehoods. Other than this, I can't really come up with a belief I would hold or defend in the manner that the second poster did.
If you hold a belief that you feel should be protected at all costs....held in the face of evidence to the contrary....or should not be questioned at all in any way....what is that belief and what gives it such value?
Generally speaking, a belief has value to me when incorporating it into my world view makes my reality more plausible, more workable.
Then again, my reality itself is already shaped by core beliefs (which I am possibly not even aware of).
IOW I have an inner map (my reality) that guides me through life, and has done so for decades in a sufficiently reliable way. Sometimes - with additional insights - I have to make minor changes to this map, sometimes the required changes are more thorough (and can be quite painful in that they require me to acknowledge that a lot paths I went - based on this map - were pointless, etc.).
Worst case scenario: Incoming information would require me to consider my map entirely worthless, to throw it in the dust bin altogether. This is a very threatening scenario, because it would leave me without any guidance, without any orientation; my entire system would break down.
This is probably the scenario in which I´d likely counter every argument by pointing to my inner map ("common sense", "everyone knows", "it is self-evident, that..." or something to that effect). Of course, I would not be aware of what I am doing.
Chances are that accepting the argument of the other poster would have made his inner map useless (or that he sensed that the implications following from accepting the argument would eventually threaten the worth of his inner map).
Well, (objective) "reality" is a very delicate concept to operate with.
We usually don´t have problems with accepting information of the "objective kind" (i.e. raw data, if you will), simply because they are meaningless (until we interprete them, relate to them, give them meaning or significance or derive implications from them - at which point they have ceased to be objective raw data).
And another thing: Even though his behaviour points to the fact that his inner map was directly or indirectly threatened, concluding that therefore the belief he held was "contrary to reality" is rashed: there may well be rational arguments for his position - he may just not have known them.
Indeed - it allows for the conclusion that the worth and usefulness of his map was threatened to a degree that struck him as intolerably destructive to his system.
It does not, though, allow for the conclusion that his system is wrong and the rejected information was correct.
That´s what I have tried to explain above.
So you yourself have such a belief that is so essential to your thinking and has shaped your inner map so thoroughly you´d defend it at all costs. Can´t you extrapolate from there?
I think the beliefs that have shaped my inner map (and abandoning which would therefore threaten my entire system) are not of the kind that can be threatened by objective information. Which seems to be the case with all beliefs that fall more on the metaphysical side.
It seems to me that your core belief ("truth allows me to make better choices, better decisions, and is a better guide in my life than falsehoods") is of that kind, as well. It protects itself against being threatened by objective information or raw data by virtue of employing subjective keywords ("better", "better guide").
What I meant to say, Ana: This is unlikely to happen in view of your core belief and the unspecific qualifiers in it. There will always be a way to adapt the framework in a way that a particular truth can be said to be the better guide than the falsehood. The actual "bias" is the belief that "truth is the better guide" - such a belief can not be falsified by objective data. Not that there´s anything wrong with that.You said this regarding my one unchanging belief....
" It protects itself against being threatened by objective information or raw data by virtue of employing subjective keywords ("better", "better guide")."
Which I thought was an odd way of looking at it lol. To me, it seems my belief only incorporates objective information (truth) in describing reality so that my understanding of it is clearer. At the least I try to avoid any personal bias I hold and not act on any bias I cannot change willingly.
Of course, if falsehoods ever prove a better guide in life for my inner map, that truth may replace on current one.
A thought occurred to me while participating in another thread in the Philosophy section. What gives a belief value? Or, what makes a belief valuable?
In another thread...a poster had presented a short summary of the evidence supporting a scientific theory. He didn't go into any great detail, he just used a very concise and common sense approach to explaining the amount and types of evidence for this particular theory. Another poster then replied by saying "Anyone who believes that must be a dumb-dumb with primitive caveman-like understanding of the world around them. Everyone knows....blah blah blah." (Paraphrasing)
Now, the poster who replied didn't offer any sort of counter-evidence for what he believed... nor did he actually try to explain why the evidence the first poster presented was incorrect. He simply chided the first poster by trying to make it seem that his statement was so far outside the realm of possibility it was inherently stupid.
In my mind, the second poster responded this way as a means of defending a belief he held that was contrary to reality. The evidence the first poster presented showed this...and the reaction of the second poster was a feeble attempt to protect his belief. What I'm wondering is....why? What makes a belief so valuable that it warrants protection from inquiry/reason/truth?
I can't think of any beliefs I hold that I wouldn't immediately abandon in the face of evidence to the contrary....save one. That belief is...truth allows me to make better choices, better decisions, and is a better guide in my life than falsehoods. Other than this, I can't really come up with a belief I would hold or defend in the manner that the second poster did.
If you hold a belief that you feel should be protected at all costs....held in the face of evidence to the contrary....or should not be questioned at all in any way....what is that belief and what gives it such value?
Of course, any comments on the topic are welcome as well.
A thought occurred to me while participating in another thread in the Philosophy section. What gives a belief value? Or, what makes a belief valuable?
In another thread...a poster had presented a short summary of the evidence supporting a scientific theory. He didn't go into any great detail, he just used a very concise and common sense approach to explaining the amount and types of evidence for this particular theory. Another poster then replied by saying "Anyone who believes that must be a dumb-dumb with primitive caveman-like understanding of the world around them. Everyone knows....blah blah blah." (Paraphrasing)
Now, the poster who replied didn't offer any sort of counter-evidence for what he believed... nor did he actually try to explain why the evidence the first poster presented was incorrect. He simply chided the first poster by trying to make it seem that his statement was so far outside the realm of possibility it was inherently stupid.
In my mind, the second poster responded this way as a means of defending a belief he held that was contrary to reality. The evidence the first poster presented showed this...and the reaction of the second poster was a feeble attempt to protect his belief. What I'm wondering is....why? What makes a belief so valuable that it warrants protection from inquiry/reason/truth?
I can't think of any beliefs I hold that I wouldn't immediately abandon in the face of evidence to the contrary....save one. That belief is...truth allows me to make better choices, better decisions, and is a better guide in my life than falsehoods. Other than this, I can't really come up with a belief I would hold or defend in the manner that the second poster did.
If you hold a belief that you feel should be protected at all costs....held in the face of evidence to the contrary....or should not be questioned at all in any way....what is that belief and what gives it such value?
Of course, any comments on the topic are welcome as well.
I can't think of any beliefs I hold that I wouldn't immediately abandon in the face of evidence to the contrary....save one. That belief is...truth allows me to make better choices, better decisions, and is a better guide in my life than falsehoods. Other than this, I can't really come up with a belief I would hold or defend in the manner that the second poster did.
This paragraph alone exposes a slew of beliefs that you hold dear. Such as: "I ought to believe what the evidence leads me to believe." And "I oughtn't hold onto beliefs for which I have no evidence."
Both of these are beliefs that could be axiomatic for you, beyond all question.
I think there are two types of value, that which is objectively valuable (can be proven and the truth of it doesn't change whether I believe it or not) and subjectively valuable (what I believe, but can't be proven) Both can be of value, but one's personal belief system won't be valuable to another person.
I agree.
And as I say, if one's faith belief makes them a better person and better able to cope with life, they should hold onto it, because it is right for them.
If a faith belief causes them to judge others in a negative light who disagree with them, put themselves on a pedestal and or requires them to ignore reality to hold onto a specific belief, then that faith belief is going to cause them turmoil.
This paragraph alone exposes a slew of beliefs that you hold dear. Such as: "I ought to believe what the evidence leads me to believe." And "I oughtn't hold onto beliefs for which I have no evidence."
Both of these are beliefs that could be axiomatic for you, beyond all question.
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