What does it mean to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

JeCrois · Aug 16, 2008

It's one thing to spiritually be born again and receive the Holy Spirit upon salvation to transform a new believer's life, change their character, and show them God's will through His Word...but that is not "baptism in the Spirit."

To be baptized, one must be fully immersed. Batism in the Spirit is the immersing/in-filling/overflow of God's presence--a constant presence/awareness.

If it is enough to simply receive the Holy Spirit in His operation for salvation (the work of spiritual birth) then why did Jesus tell his disciples to wait until they were "clothed with power from on high" before they went out and preached his message?...Jesus himself waited until he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power before he began his ministry.

At the AOG Youth Convention last week one of the services was dedicated to the teaching of the baptism in the Holy Spirit...the speaker gave a really good illustration to show what he was talking about.

He poured fresh clean water into an cup. The cup is no longer empty but has the refreshing source inhabiting it (representing spiritual salvation).....then the cup was thrown completely into the pitcher of water (representing baptism in the Spirit)--it sank down to the bottom completely submerged and surrounded by water on all sides immersed in its refreshing source. When he pulled the cup back out it was overflowing.

The Spirit should flow out of our lives through this baptism and it's evident to others when it happens. It's not just a matter of speaking in tongues or having a deeper personal experience with God...but it is to empower us and give us the boldness we need to share Jesus with the world.

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

JeCrois said:
It's one thing to spiritually be born again and receive the Holy Spirit upon salvation to transform a new believer's life, change their character, and show them God's will through His Word...but that is not "baptism in the Spirit."

To be baptized, one must be fully immersed. Batism in the Spirit is the immersing/in-filling/overflow of God's presence--a constant presence/awareness.

If it is enough to simply receive the Holy Spirit in His operation for salvation (the work of spiritual birth) then why did Jesus tell his disciples to wait until they were "clothed with power from on high" before they went out and preached his message?...Jesus himself waited until he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power before he began his ministry.

At the AOG Youth Convention last week one of the services was dedicated to the teaching of the baptism in the Holy Spirit...the speaker gave a really good illustration to show what he was talking about.

He poured fresh clean water into an cup. The cup is no longer empty but has the refreshing source inhabiting it (representing spiritual salvation).....then the cup was thrown completely into the pitcher of water (representing baptism in the Spirit)--it sank down to the bottom completely submerged and surrounded by water on all sides immersed in its refreshing source. When he pulled the cup back out it was overflowing.

The Spirit should flow out of our lives through this baptism and it's evident to others when it happens. It's not just a matter of speaking in tongues or having a deeper personal experience with God...but it is to empower us and give us the boldness we need to share Jesus with the world.

Can you justify all this, scripturally? It is one thing to base your beliefs in scripture and quite another to simply regurgitate what you have been fed.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

t1wGl said:
I was refering to the second half of that portion of the Vineyard statement of faith:

We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, 116 often a conscious experience,117 for ministry today.118 We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit119 and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit.120 We practice the laying on of hands for the empowering of the Spirit,121 for healing,122 and for recognition and empowering of those whom God has ordained to lead and serve the Church.

From the way it reads this seems like the Vineyard church believes in and advocates a second work of the Holy Spirit in life of the believer.

Well, I am a Vineyard minister and I can tell you we dont.

I also believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit (which happens continually to believers from the moment they are saved) and that often (though, please note, the statement does not say always) is a conscious experience. A second definite work of the Spirit would require that it be conscious, wouldnt it, or else how could it be definite.

I can also tell you from intimate, up close knowledge (being one myself) that all Vineyard pastors do not share a Pentecostal interpretation of the baptism by/of/with/in the Holy Spirit

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

t1wGl said:
Well I remember distinctly my salvation experience (indeed the most wonderful experience in my life) and I also remember the distinct difference when I experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

They were two unique experiences and I am grateful to God for both experiences. I cannot in good conscience say that they were two separate instances of the same experience.

I did not even know about a baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues until the night before I spoke in tongues so the story in Acts 19 rings very true for me.

This was my experience as I understand it. I cannot speak for others. I can only speak for what I experienced.

Acts 19:1-7

1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

I would say that the night you believe you were baptized in the Holy Spirit was simply a moment when your were filled (i.e., re-filled) with the Spirit. You spoke in tongues because by that time you had come to believe that you could and, even if you had not come to believe it, you still could do it because every gift of the Holy Spirit, including tongues, was available to you from the instant you were saved. He had already given you  all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1.3) and blessed you with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1.3).

All and every are inclusive terms. What else did He need to do for you after you became a believer?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

imperfectchristian · Aug 16, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
I would say that the night you believe you were baptized in the Holy Spirit was simply a moment when your were filled (i.e., re-filled) with the Spirit. You spoke in tongues because by that time you had come to believe that you could and, even if you had not come to believe it, you still could do it because every gift of the Holy Spirit, including tongues, was available to you from the instant you were saved. He had already given you  all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1.3) and blessed you with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1.3).

All and every are inclusive terms. What else did He need to do for you after you became a believer?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

I agree that it was mine to have from the moment I became a Christian but I was not actually filled until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

To give a very rough and maybe a somewhat silly analogy: Being saved from the standpoint of spiritual gifts is like having the ticket to ride the train. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one way (some would say the threshold) of riding the train.

imperfectchristian · Aug 16, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
Well, I am a Vineyard minister and I can tell you we dont.

I also believe in the infilling of the Holy Spirit (which happens continually to believers from the moment they are saved) and that often (though, please note, the statement does not say always) is a conscious experience. A second definite work of the Spirit would require that it be conscious, wouldnt it, or else how could it be definite.

I can also tell you from intimate, up close knowledge (being one myself) that all Vineyard pastors do not share a Pentecostal interpretation of the baptism by/of/with/in the Holy Spirit

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

My initial Holy Spirit baptism experience was not a conscious experience (I spoke in tongues in my sleep) although the change it brought about was no less completely distinct and definite.

I don't know much about the vineyard church, only that I love and use the music. I was just saying that was the way I was reading the statement of faith.

I trust you know what you are talking about and what you and your respective denomination believes. I was not attempting to argue the point...only seeking clarification.

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

t1wGl said:
My initial Holy Spirit baptism experience was not a conscious experience (I spoke in tongues in my sleep) although the change it brought about was no less completely distinct and definite.

I don't know much about the vineyard church, only that I love and use the music. I was just saying that was the way I was reading the statement of faith.

I trust you know what you are talking about and what you and your respective denomination believes. I was not attempting to argue the point...only seeking clarification.

No problem, t1. Im glad you brought it up.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

t1wGl said:
I agree that it was mine to have from the moment I became a Christian but I was not actually filled until I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

To give a very rough and maybe a somewhat silly analogy: Being saved from the standpoint of spiritual gifts is like having the ticket to ride the train. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is one way (some would say the threshold) of riding the train.

From my vantage, it is a free ride, a gift. There is no ticket. You get on board and you get all the amenities the moment you do. There are no first-class (aka, Full-Gospel) and second-class (Half-Gospel????) passengers on this train. We are all first-class, VIP.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

SharonL · Aug 16, 2008

Jim, you might be surprised if you come right out and ask your members if they ever experienced a second blessing?

No one taught me, none of the churches I went to taught this, but yet when I ask for it, the second blessing was so great there was no way I could deny it and my life has never been the same - I never had the joy of the Lord like I had after this Blessing.

imperfectchristian · Aug 16, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
From my vantage, it is a free ride, a gift. There is no ticket. You get on board and you get all the amenities the moment you do. There are no first-class (aka, Full-Gospel) and second-class (Half-Gospel????) passengers on this train. We are all first-class, VIP.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

And from my vantage point we are all VIP's indeed, but some of God's children choose to ride in coach.

imperfectchristian · Aug 16, 2008

t1wGl said:
And from my vantage point we are all VIP's indeed, but some of God's children choose to ride in coach.

I guess that contradicted what I was saying...well there is no perfect analogy.

JeCrois · Aug 16, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
Can you justify all this, scripturally? It is one thing to base your beliefs in scripture and quite another to simply regurgitate what you have been fed.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

Sure....there's an article in my study bible on this topic and a lot of the scriptures are already referenced. (I didn't regurgitate that article for you though BTW! )

JeCrois said:
It's one thing to spiritually be born again (described in John 3:3-7) and receive the Holy Spirit upon salvation to transform a new believer's life, change their character, and show them God's will through His Word...but that is not "baptism in the Spirit." (there's a difference between baptism "in" the Spirit and baptism "with" the Spirit like in Mat 3:11 IMO...two different acts)

To be baptized, one must be fully immersed. Batism in the Spirit is the immersing/in-filling/overflow of God's presence--a constant presence/awareness. (Not necessarily scriptual but based on the definition of the word "baptism")

If it is enough to simply receive the Holy Spirit in His operation for salvation (the work of spiritual birth) then why did Jesus tell his disciples to wait until they were "clothed with power from on high" (Luke 24:49)before they went out and preached his message? (Acts 1:5-8)...Jesus himself waited until he was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power before he began his ministry. (Acts 10:38, Luke 4:1, 18)

At the AOG Youth Convention last week one of the services was dedicated to the teaching of the baptism in the Holy Spirit...the speaker gave a really good illustration to show what he was talking about.

He poured fresh clean water into an cup. The cup is no longer empty but has the refreshing source inhabiting it (representing spiritual salvation).....then the cup was thrown completely into the pitcher of water (representing baptism in the Spirit)--it sank down to the bottom completely submerged and surrounded by water on all sides immersed in its refreshing source. When he pulled the cup back out it was overflowing.

The Spirit should flow out of our lives through this baptism and it's evident to others when it happens. (Joel's prophecy 2:28-29) It's not just a matter of speaking in tongues or having a deeper personal experience with God...but it is to empower us and give us the boldness we need to share Jesus with the world. (Acts 1:8, 4:31, Romans 15:19, 1Cor 2:4-5)

Now to reiterate...Jesus' disciples knew Jesus and had a relationship with him...they even exercised miracles in the authority of his name....but Jesus was clear that that wasn't enough. He told them to wait until they received the power of the Spirit before they went out on a crusade to save this world.

When we become saved the Spirit imparts in us the means to aquire and desire a relationship with our Lord, but until we become immersed in His power and fire we can't get a lot accomplished outside of a personal relationship with God...we can't do a whole lot to save the lost and edify the church body through the gifts promised to us in the power of the Spirit.

JimB · Aug 16, 2008

JeCrois said:
Sure....there's an article in my study bible on this topic and a lot of the scriptures are already referenced. (I didn't regurgitate that article for you though BTW! )

*****

But I would contend that all of this happens the moment we become a Christian, not in prolonged increments.

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

JimfromOhio · Aug 16, 2008

When the Holy Spirit convicts a person to be saved, that person repented and got saved. At that moment, the Holy Spirit entered a person's life. Jesus said that NO OUTWARD CHANGE such as religious credentials, ceremony, baptism or anything will change the heart. He told one of the most religious men of His day that unless a person is "born again" by the Spirit, he cannot see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

We all have received to Holy Spirit the moment we were saved. We received the complete Holy Spirit and there is no more Holy Spirit to receive. All we need to do is to yield ourselves to Him.

Now, if someone needs motivation like having baptism, that is outward motivation more than inward. The fact of the baptism by the Holy Spirit has to be the most confused, misrepresented, misunderstood doctrine among Christians today. It is a cause for continual controversy. This is why I have problem with some of Pentecostal's doctrines.

I was doing research on this topic and discovered that man's doctrines have came up with many different ways to obtain the baptism of the Spirit. Origin of baptism of the Spirit come from in Catholicism. Some Catholic theologians have taught that when an infant is baptized, this infant receives salvation and years later, when this child is confirmed by the "Church" in receiving the Holy Spirit.

We are saved by the works of the Holy Spirit, not of ourselves, before water baptism, which is spiritual baptism.

visionary · Aug 16, 2008

When I opened up my heart to receive the Lord into my life. He came to me in all His Holiness and even though He had just gone through the Book of my life and showed me all my sins, I still felt unclean in His presence until He place His robe of righteousness upon me. Speaking in tongues did not happen. We talked for hours and the Lord was there before me in His clearness answering with either scripture or answers that are scriptural. It was a mind blowing experience and I learned a lot. I came away with the understanding that if the gft of tongues is necessary it would be provided to further the gospel.

Speaking in tongues without someone interpreting is not scriptural. Making senseless noise in not praising the Lord. Now if we are talking about private prayer it is a different matter.. That is between the prayer and the Lord....

peacechild4 · Aug 16, 2008

SharonL said:
Mine was an unmistakeable second work - I know I was saved at an early age and walked the walk of a Christian - but I never knew the joy and excitement of walking with Jesus until the Holy Spirit fell on me so strongly in a way that nothing else had ever shook me before.

Yes amen I feel the same!!

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 17, 2008

Jimbeaux said:
I would say that the night you believe you were baptized in the Holy Spirit was simply a moment when your were filled (i.e., re-filled) with the Spirit. You spoke in tongues because by that time you had come to believe that you could and, even if you had not come to believe it, you still could do it because every gift of the Holy Spirit, including tongues, was available to you from the instant you were saved. He had already given you  all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1.3) and blessed you with every spiritual blessing (Eph. 1.3).

All and every are inclusive terms. What else did He need to do for you after you became a believer?

~Jim

If the first step in an argument is wrong everything that follows is wrong. ~C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

I agree with this. I was converted, and received all my teaching about the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the AOG church. I went for 39 years believing that the baptism of the Spirit was a second work of grace.

Then, I did a deeper study of the New Testament, testing my former teaching about it. I could not find any conclusive evidence of a "baptism of the Spirit" at all, except the statement that John the Baptist made BEFORE the Day of Pentecost. I came to see that the fulfillment of John's words came on the Day of Pentecost.

I looked at the examples in the Book of Acts and realised that the people who were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues were not aware of what happened at Pentecost, and as soon as it was taught to them, they entered right into the full infilling of the Spirit. One of these groups knew only the baptism of John, so they needed to be introduced to the gospel of Christ and be led to Christ. This one is a good example of the infilling of the Spirit and the gift of tongues coming to a group of people who were accepting Christ for the first time. I also realised that Luke was merely recording his observations and not intending to teach Christian doctrine, so the examples of the infilling of the Spirit in Acts were not to be relied on as a doctrinal base for the work of the Holy Spirit in believers.

I have searched through Paul's writings on the work of the Holy Spirit, and I have not found any reference to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" or any second "experience" other than Christian conversion.

After my research, I have come to the strong conclusion that we receive everything that God has for us at the point of conversion, and are able to walk and minister in the power of the Holy Spirit from that point without having to enter into any subsequent experience or level. In fact, looking for an experience that the Scripture does not support can open one up to counterfeit experiences, and examples of this are rife throughout Spirit Filled Church communities.

I think that the delay from conversion to a sense of power in the Holy Spirit is one of learning and experience. Spiritual babies can only take the milk of the Word, and those who mature in the Lord are able to take stronger "meat". There is the development that comes through growing in grace, and greater infillings of the Spirit come with the process of spiritual development. These can be mistakenly attributed to a doctrine of a second work of grace.

The actual doctrine originates from the Wesleyan Holiness movements which taught that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was a second work of grace that made a person more holy, or sanctified. It was termed Full Sanctification. Unfortunately this unScriptural doctrine has caused much legalism in the Holiness churches, and consequently much distress among good believers who are conscious (as we all are) of their spiritual and moral shortcomings. These Holiness people have not got the revelation that through Jesus taking our sin upon Himself, we have been made the righteousness of God, and have received God's divine nature. This happened at the point of conversion.

Therefore, why need another work of grace when born again believers are already as righteous as they can get - being as righteous as Jesus is through the redemptive work of Jesus on the Cross. Why would God try to make someone more righteous when He sees that person as completely righteous before Him in Christ already?

If, as the Scripture says, we received every spiritual blessing in heavenly places, and everything that pertains to eternal life and godliness, is there any more to receive?

No. All we need to do is to put in action what we we already have as our inheritance in Christ.

So, my message to all those who are waiting for some type of "baptism of the Holy Spirit," stop hanging around waiting for something that has already been given to you on the Day of Pentecost, and start to put your Spirit infilling into practice right now!

You can speak in tongues right now!
You can prophesy.
You can use the gifts of healing,
You can use the Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom.

You can use any of the gifts of the Spirit right now because the Holy Spirit is already in you with all His power and ability.

All you have to do is believe it.

JEBrady · Aug 17, 2008

t1wGl said:
Nevertheless, like so many who have experienced this second work of grace, I cannot ignore or set aside my own experience which was a distinct, seperate work from salvation.

SharonL said:
Mine was an unmistakeable second work - I know I was saved at an early age and walked the walk of a Christian - but I never knew the joy and excitement of walking with Jesus until the Holy Spirit fell on me so strongly in a way that nothing else had ever shook me before.

Same here. I know the precise moment I was born again, and the moment when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit.

What does it mean to be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

Je Crois (zshuh kwah) = 'I believe'

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