What do you know about the history of Satan?

Glanecia · Feb 7, 2007

1. What do you know about the history of the word Satan, as it appears within Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism? Other religions?

2. What is "Satan" to you?

Just a few questions to get a conversation started....

Gimpy · Feb 7, 2007

Satan, an accusing angel, who was the angel Lucifer, God's one time morning star, was God's leader of worship. Then he tried to share the throne with God and was banished to Earth. One third of the angels were on the side of Lucifer. They were sent to a pit to be chained for an indefinite period of time. As time has evolved, Satan has become the supplanter. He now wants to literally take the throne as God. So, now he is intent on the destruction of all that God does. (just a short summary)

stone · Feb 7, 2007

Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

***

Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

***

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

***

Ge 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

***

Ge 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

***

Ge 3:11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

***

Ge 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

***

Genesis 6:1-2 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Glanecia · Feb 7, 2007

Stone, is that all you know? A bit of scripture?

Gimpy, thanks for the reply.

That story you're telling comes from the Christian interpretation of Isaiah 14: 12-15. It's your typical Paradise Lost story. Though, from a Jewish perspective that scripture refers to a mere mortal -the King of Babylon. It is a Jewish text and was before it ever became Christian, so I appreciate their interpretation a bit more.

Have you read Paradise Lost? Did you know that's where the idea of Lucifer -as a fallen angel- became popular? The bible doesn't tell you much about the fall of "Lucifer"; but this fictional book certainly does. Interesting, hmm?

"Nearly two and a half thousand years after Isaiah wrote [Isaiah 14: 12-15], this luminous fallen star, his name translated into Latin as Lucifer (light-bearer) was transformed by Milton into the protagonist of Paradise Lost" (Origin of Satan, Elaine Pagels, pg 48).

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/199/story_19993.html Beliefnet.com has a great informational page about the Fall of Satan. It touches on some of the things I've read in "Origin of Satan".

Gomez · Feb 7, 2007

Glanecia said:
Though, from a Jewish perspective that scripture refers to a mere mortal -the King of Babylon. It is a Jewish text and was before it ever became Christian, so I appreciate their interpretation a bit more.

I always thought the jews believed Satan was an agent of God. I could be wrong though.

arunma · Feb 7, 2007

Glanecia said:
1. What do you know about the history of the word Satan, as it appears within Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism? Other religions?

Well first of all I should mention that I consider Satanism to be a joke rather than a religion. Satanism has no historical tradition, no doctrine, and no canonical scripture or standardized worship. It seems to me like something that teenagers claim as their religion to act rebellious. So I don't think that it's important to consider what Satan means to a Satanist.

Anyway, I'm aware that in Christianity, Satan is portrayed as an angel who opposes God's chosen people (i.e. Christians) before the throne of God, and whom God sometimes uses for destructive purposes. Satan's ultimate destiny is hell. Islam has a very similar view of Satan. But in Judaism, Satan is merely an agent of God. Satan's name comes from the Hebrew word for adversary.

There is a popular story of Satan's fall from grace. It is said that Satan was the greatest of God's creations. But he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven along with a third of the angels. However, this story is explicitly found nowhere in the Bible. Of all places, it is found in the Quran. I presume that the story comes from some ancient Hebrew manuscript (which may or may not be extant).

Glanecia said:
2. What is "Satan" to you?

A bad guy. I don't spend much time thinking about him.

Abbadon · Feb 7, 2007

Glanecia said:
1. What do you know about the history of the word Satan, as it appears within Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Satanism? Other religions?

Technically, Satan is pretty much only an Abrahamic thing. There have been Satan figures in other religions, such as Mara or Ahriman, but Ha-Shaitan is Abrahamic. There's the claim that Satan is derived from Set, but "Seth" and "Ha-Shaitan" aren't too similar in sound.

Satan means "adversary" and common interpretations include:

1. A/The prosecuting lawyer-angel in a "trial by life."
2. A/The spirit that is adversarial to God.
3. A/The fallen angel that is adversarial to God's creation.

Glanecia said:
2. What is "Satan" to you?

Not a single being, but the idea of evil or non-existance itself (I tend to be a neoplatonic hedonist, viewing existance and good as the same thing, and argue that evil [not bad, but evil, there is a difference] people are ultimately destroying a part of themselves).

Lord_Marx · Feb 7, 2007

Satan is very similar to the Egyptian God Set and the Norse character Loki. All three figures originally served the God's but as time progressed and the stories were passed on, they became increasingly evil. Set went from the ruler of Lower Egypt to a back-stabbing God of destruction; Loki went from a trickster who both helped and hurt the Gods to one of their greatest foes during Armageddon. Satan went from a prosecutor of God to the incarnation of all evil.

So what do I think about Satan? I think that people like to have bad guys in their stories, it makes things more interesting...

Abbadon · Feb 7, 2007

Set's change from good god to bad god was political. The Egyptians associated him with a conquering nation.

Satan going from "angel with crappy job" or "generic evil spirit" to "fallen angel" was a result of an interpretation issue in Isaiah. "Lucifer" (the fellow that falls) can refer to either some fallen angel, or it could refer to a king that was being a bit of a pain at the time that called himself the daystar.

ChavaK · Feb 7, 2007

Gomez said:
I always thought the jews believed Satan was an agent of God. I could be wrong though.

You are correct. He is not a fallen angel, nor can he
act freely of his own will. He can only act if G-d
allows it. He is sent to tempt us and to therefore
strength our faith and connection to G-d.

peepnklown · Feb 7, 2007

1 Well, its a Hebrew word for adversary.
1 Samuel 29:4, 2 Samuel 19:23 and Zechariah 3:1-2 clearly show that the Hebrew term [Satan] is used to describe human adversaries. It says nothing about a supernatural being.
We also have to keep in mind that the oldest text of the Hebrew Bible [Torah] says nothing about a supernatural being called Satan.
Even if you want to bring Job into the mixture [even though its most likely a metaphor and a teaching tool] then you got an agent working for God.
Isaiah 14:12: the Hebrew translates to o bright star [or shinning one], son of morning [or dawn]. In context Isaiah 14 is talking about the Babylonian empire.

2 Satan is a product of the mixture of different myths to describe the evil in humanity.

czach8 · Feb 7, 2007

arunma said:
There is a popular story of Satan's fall from grace. It is said that Satan was the greatest of God's creations. But he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven along with a third of the angels. However, this story is explicitly found nowhere in the Bible. I presume that the story comes from some ancient Hebrew manuscript (which may or may not be extant).

Actually brother, there is reference about this story in Isaiah 14:12-15. Here you go:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High." 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

arunma said:
Of all places, it is found in the Quran.

Apparently not anymore, so now you have the chance to tell Muslims that Muhammad stole this story from the bible or better yet you can use the argument that Christians had the story first.

Peace and God bless.

arunma · Feb 7, 2007

czach8 said:
Actually brother, there is reference about this story in Isaiah 14:12-15. Here you go:

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High." 15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

Apparently not anymore, so now you have the chance to tell Muslims that Muhammad stole this story from the bible or better yet you can use the argument that Christians had the story first.

Peace and God bless.

It would be prudent to read the addressee of the oracle:

When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: "How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! (Isaiah 14:3-4)

Let me guess: this verse was added by the Big Bad Catholic Church after the advent of Islam?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 7, 2007

Originally Posted by arunma

There is a popular story of Satan's fall from grace. It is said that Satan was the greatest of God's creations. But he rebelled against God and was cast out of heaven along with a third of the angels. However, this story is explicitly found nowhere in the Bible. I presume that the story comes from some ancient Hebrew manuscript (which may or may not be extant).

That story is in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4559751-revelation-a-jewish-polemic-book.html
-revelation-a-jewish-polemic-book

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place/topon <5117> and nation."

Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his messengers fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place/ topoV <5117> found for them in heaven any longer.

Ezekiel 29:3 Speak, and thou hast said: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt! The great dragon that is laying in the midst of his floods, Who hath said, My flood [is] my own, And I--I have made it [for] myself.

arunma · Feb 7, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
That story is in the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4559751-revelation-a-jewish-polemic-book.html
-revelation-a-jewish-polemic-book

John 11:48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place/topon <5117> and nation."

Reve 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his messengers fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his messengers fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place/ topoV <5117> found for them in heaven any longer.

Yes I'm aware of this passage from the Book of Revelation. My earlier point was that in the Bible, there is no obvious connection between this, and the origin story of Satan. Recall that elsewhere, the Book of Revelation states that the dragon's tail swept out a third of the stars from heaven and cast them to the earth. It is not too difficult to conclude that stars are allegorical representations of angels. However, the passage seems to describe a future event, which is why it cannot be connected to Satan's act of treason against heaven.

TrevorKamal · Feb 8, 2007

Glanecia said:
2. What is "Satan" to you?

A metaphor for putting one's self before the whole.

BruceDLimber · Feb 8, 2007

Hi, Glanecia!

In the Baha'i view, God is One, Supreme, and has no rival! There is thus no active "devil" or evil force competing with Him. Any evil is created by ourselves and any bad choices we make.

As to "satan," we see this as simply a name for our lower (animal) nature with we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

Regards,

Bruce

czach8 · Feb 8, 2007

arunma said:
It would be prudent to read the addressee of the oracle:
When the LORD has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: "How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! (Isaiah 14:3-4)
Let me guess: this verse was added by the Big Bad Catholic Church after the advent of Islam?

Well it would also be prudent of you if you read biblical commentaries that specifically say this verse points to Satan. Just becasue the word "Babylon" is mentioned does not mean that the entire verse is based on that context. In addition, how is Babylon considered a morning star that fell from the sky? Unless there is another verse in the bible that says such a thing about Babylon. Can you point me to any other verse saying this about Babylon? Unlike the Quran, the bible is not as simplistic when it comes to interpreting scripture, but again the gift of discerning comes from the Spirit.

arunma said:
Let me guess: this verse was added by the Big Bad Catholic Church after the advent of Islam?

Well actually I use to be a Catholic until I was born-again. However, I do not think I view the Catholic church as if they are terroristic despite it's history of crusades, man-made rules, and the sale of indulgences. To be honest with you, I refer more to the Catholic bible only because it was not retranslated as much as the new bibles. Therefore, the Catholic bible is the best biblical scripture with least flaws.

Peace.

SecretOfFatima · Feb 8, 2007

Just look around yourself and wake up to the reality of his works (culture of Death)

source: http://www.priestsforlife.org/articles/devilsmistake.htm

What Was the Devil's Mistake?
by Father Frank Pavone
National Director, Priests for Life

The war between the culture of life and the culture of death did not begin after Roe v. Wade, although it did enter a new chapter at that point. It has its origins at the dawn of human history and, in fact, in the history of the angels.
In Revelation 12:7 we read, "War broke out in heaven." War is a terrible thing on earth. What must it mean that war broke out in heaven? This war involved some angels who rebelled against God and became devils. What was it that caused an angel to become a devil? What was the Devil's mistake?
In Isaiah 14, we read a rebuke to the King of Babylon. The passage also has a deeper spiritual meaning and is a glimpse into the thinking of the evil one. It reads, "How you have fallen from the heavens, Oh Lucifer! ... You said in your heart: 'I will scale the heavens; above the stars of God I will set up my throne ... I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!"' (Is. 14:12-14).
There is the Devil's mistake. He thought that he could be God! This is why the angels who fought him in heaven were led by one named Michael, which means, "Who is like God?"
Michael and his angels won, but the war did not end there. Satan and his legion "were cast down to the earth" (Rev. 12:9), and our troubles began.
The account of those troubles continues in the Garden of Eden, where the Devil approaches Eve with the temptation to eat from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:17). To understand what this original temptation was, keep in mind the Devil's mistake: to think he could be God. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represents this way of thinking. It is not the idea that we would simply know the difference between good and evil, but that we would decide the difference between good and evil. No more moral laws! What's right for me is right for me; what's right for you is right for you -- the decision is ours to make. So the tempter says, "You will be like gods" (Gen. 3:5).
The most recent echo of this temptation is the 1992 Supreme Court case Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which states that at the heart of liberty is the right "to define one's own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life."
Here we have the core of the thinking behind contraception, abortion, and euthanasia.
The solution to the thinking of the evil one is the thinking of the Holy One. As Isaiah lifted the veil to show us the mind of Lucifer, so St. Paul lifts the veil to show us the mind of Christ: "Though he was in the form of God, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave. It was thus that he humbled himself, obediently accepting even death, death on a cross. Therefore God highly exalted him" (Phil. 2:6-9).
This attitude, which St. Paul says must be ours, counteracts the attitude that we exalt ourselves by our own choices. Rather, our exaltation, our freedom, and our fulfillment come from a humble acceptance of and obedience to a truth that we did not create. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil marks the limit of our choices. True freedom is the power to choose what is right, and to love as Christ did, by giving ourselves away for the good of the other person. Let this attitude of Christ's permeate our lives and the fabric of our society!

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Fortuna · Feb 9, 2007

Hi all!
This is a really interesting topic. I was just discussing this with someone on another off site forum

I am told by a Jew that the word Satan means (Hinderer).

As God created all, he also created Satan. Even the Ancient Egyptians understood that there was one creator God who created all that exists. The god Set was adopted into Christian culture and assigned the role of the devil because his function is chaos or may be called Hinderance, sin is part of chaos, IMHO. The long barbed tail, the red body, his function, these came from the myth of Set.

The first Christian Church in Egypt was the Coptic church. Many customs and religious beings of the culture were adopted and transformed with the church. I believe this was done to attract new converts and make them feel more at home. jUst as the incense was adopted, so was the physical structure of the church itself patterned after AE temples.

In the early Coptic Church the priests would offer spells to attendees that we came to know later as prayers.

The type of spells or prayers that they used to offer are not offered today , of course.

If we think of Satan as the Hinderer, one who stops us from having closeness or communion with God, I think we can better understand his function. And what are sins but us falling into temptation that hinders us from being with God.

The other thing is, that Satan gives our lives meaning. Without him how do we show God our love for Him? How do we show God that the choices we make are for His laws not Satan? How can we otherwise have victory over our sin?

Blessings, Fortuna

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