What do you believe in?

His_disciple3 · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
Would you explain, please? I don't see how the two are compatible. One says that we choose salvation, the other says that God chooses for us.

Do you know what predestination means? Before-destiny. God selected us before the world was even created. But if God chose us, then it wasn't our choice at all.

What you're thinking of is probably foreknowledge, which is distinctly different from predestination.

Also, as for your position in the poll, yours is neither. Neither means that you are not on either side. A medium in between the two is under the category of neither.

God knew by His foreknowledge who would receive His Love, He is omniscience so by His foreknowledge , of knowing the ones that would use their measure of faith to choose heaven over Hell and life over death, by this knowledge He predestined the elect. however I disagree with what you said about the way I should vote I believe it would be Both seeing that predestination and free-will can be find in the Holy scriptures. so I elect not to vote after all that is my free-will is it not?

Jake255 · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
Yes. I was baptized twice, not included my dedication as a baby. First time was in a Lutheran church, when they sprinkled me. Second was last year when I joined a Baptist church, because they believed in full water baptism.

As for the notion of God calling all of us, I've addressed that in my previous post, specifically with the verse at the bottom.

So you did do something twice, is that because the Bible tells us to "believe and be baptized"?

God doesn't call all of us, the Bible says "many are called".

So do you also believe that if a baby dies, and that baby is not chosen, then that baby will burn in hell forever?

GrayAngel · Aug 2, 2011

His_disciple3 said:
God knew by His foreknowledge who would receive His Love, He is omniscience so by His foreknowledge , of knowing the ones that would use their measure of faith to choose heaven over Hell and life over death, by this knowledge He predestined the elect. however I disagree with what you said about the way I should vote I believe it would be Both seeing that predestination and free-will can be find in the Holy scriptures. so I elect not to vote after all that is my free-will is it not?

The thing is, your position is the only one I can conceive of that would fit under "neither," unless you didn't believe in God at all.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. What you're describing is not predestination, it's simple acknowledgement. One cannot become President and then be elected. Election comes first. Acknowledgement would be like in the case of a King taking a thrown, and then the people recognize him. But it's not election.

Jake255 said:
So you did do something twice, is that because the Bible tells us to "believe and be baptized"?

God doesn't call all of us, the Bible says "many are called".

So do you also believe that if a baby dies, and that baby is not chosen, then that baby will burn in hell forever?

Yes, I did do something. But I did it because God had preordained for me to do it. It was His plan for me to believe and be baptized.

We agree on something, then. While I do believe in the God-shaped hole, to an extent, I don't believe that God is calling all of us.

A bit off topic, but no, I don't. Some believe in something called the "age of accountability." I don't know if I believe that those under a specific age are given a free pass, but I'm certain that babies go to Heaven.

You're familiar with the story of David and Bathsheba, right? God told David that He would kill the baby because of David's sin, but David cried and pleaded constantly for God to give mercy. But when the baby died, he stopped crying. When asked the reason for his behavior, this was his response:

II Samuel 12:22-23 - He answered, While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live. But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

cubinity · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
<snip> God hardened the hearts of Jesus' audience so that they would not believe. First of all, this conflicts with the idea that God is calling all of us. Second, it shows that God chose to make people turn from Him.

You can make pretty compelling arguments for how those that God rejects He rejects proactively.

However, when we are discussing salvation, His rejection isn't all that important.

It's the one's He is not rejecting that interest me.

Is He forcing people to come to Him?

98cwitr · Aug 2, 2011

cubinity said:
Sorry. I totally missed this post. Thanks for drawing my attention to it.

My first reaction is that you describe us coming to Jesus, but you are insisting that we don't choose to, right? I mean, we just do it compulsively, without wanting or willing ourselves to, right?

I'll look at your suggested verses and tell you what they mean to me. That's all I can really do I guess:

Matthew 3:14 - the context is John doing his thing, and Jesus shows up. John, humbled in the presence of his Savior, makes a statement in conflict with Jesus' pursuit to be baptized by John. I equate this statement by John with Peter's statement in Matt. 16:22. It is a case of someone in Jesus' life missing the point. What you think it has to do with our discussion is lost on me. Sorry.

Matthew 11:28 - Oh, are you using these verses to communicate that Jesus wants us to come to him? Interesting. Isn't that the same reason a person knocks at a door? Because they want you to come to where they are and answer? See Luke 12:35-48

Matthew 19:14 - To this instruction, did his audience reply, "Let them? If it was up to us, we would. But it's up to God, so why are you instructing us to let them. It's God's fault we're in the way."

John 5:40 - how can I refuse when it isn't up to me?

John 6:37 - So what this is saying then is that it is not up to Jesus whether a person refuses him, nor up to the individual, but up to God. Thus, when he accuses his audience of refusing him in John 5:40, he is actually just accusing God of making them refuse him? And you don't see any problem with that way of reading it?

John 6:44 - draw them... Interesting that it doesn't say forces them, or makes them against their will. By saying, "draws them," it is almost as if the person has some choice in the matter.

John 6:65 - enabled them... also interesting. Able and drawn, but not automated to do so...

John 7:37 - yes! Let them! By choice.

Maybe I don't get what you are trying to say, but I do know that the Bible says in Revelations 3:20, "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."

Very well, sir. I can respect your opinions.

You said: "I see this author communicating that in our freedom, God has changed our destiny, and is yet to change the destiny of those who currently do not believe."

^^^Doesn't this imply that God changes His mind (based on the definition of what a destiny is)?

cubinity · Aug 2, 2011

98cwitr said:
Very well, sir. I can respect your opinions.

You said: "I see this author communicating that in our freedom, God has changed our destiny, and is yet to change the destiny of those who currently do not believe."

^^^Doesn't this imply that God changes His mind (based on the definition of what a destiny is)?

I can also respect your opinions.

"Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." - Exodus 32:14

^^^Doesn't this imply that God changes His mind (based on the definition of what relenting is)?

Jake255 · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
The thing is, your position is the only one I can conceive of that would fit under "neither," unless you didn't believe in God at all.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. What you're describing is not predestination, it's simple acknowledgement. One cannot become President and then be elected. Election comes first. Acknowledgement would be like in the case of a King taking a thrown, and then the people recognize him. But it's not election.

Yes, I did do something. But I did it because God had preordained for me to do it. It was His plan for me to believe and be baptized.

We agree on something, then. While I do believe in the God-shaped hole, to an extent, I don't believe that God is calling all of us.

A bit off topic, but no, I don't. Some believe in something called the "age of accountability." I don't know if I believe that those under a specific age are given a free pass, but I'm certain that babies go to Heaven.

How are you so certain? Not everyone is called and everyone starts off as a baby, so there must be some babies who are not called. If you are not called, then you burn in hell for eternity, correct? According to your doctrine, a baby, who dies, and who is not called, is going to hell. Just because you can not handle the thought, doesn't change what your doctrine says about the "not called".

There is no age of accountability with your doctrine, you are not accountable to your salvation, so a young child and/or baby, if they should die, and are not chosen, will go to hell.

Jake255 · Aug 2, 2011

Do the predestinators believe they are born justified?

98cwitr · Aug 2, 2011

^^^Those that are justified were justified before they're very existence. They have been justified in eternity and not a certain point.

cubinity said:
I can also respect your opinions.

"Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." - Exodus 32:14

^^^Doesn't this imply that God changes His mind (based on the definition of what relenting is)?

If that is evidence of God changing His mind then we have a major contradiction to deal with:

Numbers 23:19
1 Samuel 15:29

...I have always told myself that it was to get Moses to act as he does in the rest of that chapter, but I could be wrong.

GrayAngel · Aug 2, 2011

Jake255 said:
How are you so certain? Not everyone is called and everyone starts off as a baby, so there must be some babies who are not called. If you are not called, then you burn in hell for eternity, correct? According to your doctrine, a baby, who dies, and who is not called, is going to hell. Just because you can not handle the thought, doesn't change what your doctrine says about the "not called".

There is no age of accountability with your doctrine, you are not accountable to your salvation, so a young child and/or baby, if they should die, and are not chosen, will go to hell.

Do you believe that we have to have faith in Jesus to be saved? Does that mean that babies, who cannot have faith, are all destined for Hell if they die?

No. Predestination is not much different. Being chosen is not the only thing that saves us, though it is the most important factor. Election means that God has fated us to come into faith with him.

Your assumption is that if a baby dies, they only go to Heaven if God had chosen them. But if they died at that age, then maybe it was because God had chosen them.

Jake255 said:
Do the predestinators believe they are born justified?

Not exactly. It's more that we were born to be justified. We were born the enemies of God, but we were meant to be transformed from the start. Only the angels and Jesus were born sons of God. The rest of us are adopted children.

Gozreht · Aug 2, 2011

I had the same question on my blog. I thought you would be interested in the results. There was about 20 people or so who answered it.

(50%) We have complete free will.
(30%) Not sure.
(11%) But only a certain few are predesitined.
(7%) Our lives were predetermined. We have no control.

GrayAngel · Aug 2, 2011

Gozreht said:
I had the same question on my blog. I thought you would be interested in the results. There was about 20 people or so who answered it.

(50%) We have complete free will.

(30%) Not sure.

(11%) But only a certain few are predesitined.

(7%) Our lives were predetermined. We have no control.

Sounds about right. But it looks like you have two options for predestination.

Was your blog for Baptists to answer, or anybody?

Gozreht · Aug 2, 2011

Anybody. I mean...anybody I wanted accuracy of everyone. I have atheists as well that vote (and argue) sometimes.

Gozreht · Aug 2, 2011

I never thought about "neither". I usually add that answer to my polls. Hindsight is 20-20.

Jake255 · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
Do you believe that we have to have faith in Jesus to be saved? Does that mean that babies, who cannot have faith, are all destined for Hell if they die?

Yes, we receive Christ through faith and we must be obedient.
I believe in the age of accountability, and that age differs individually.

GrayAngel:
No. Predestination is not much different. Being chosen is not the only thing that saves us, though it is the most important factor. Election means that God has fated us to come into faith with him}

Really? Jesus Christ doesn't save us anymore?
The most important factor in the gift of salvation is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, we are offered the gift, and then we can receive it or reject it.

GrayAngel:
Your assumption is that if a baby dies, they only go to Heaven if God had chosen them. But if they died at that age, then maybe it was because God had chosen them.}

No, babies and children who die before their age of accountability - go to heaven.

GrayAngel:

Not exactly. It's more that we were born to be justified. We were born the enemies of God, but we were meant to be transformed from the start. Only the angels and Jesus were born sons of God. The rest of us are adopted children.[/quote]
I'm sure there are different variations of the doctrine of predestination, and it's good you know this.

Usually the doctrine of predestination states that the chosen are already justified at birth, which along with almost all of that particular doctrine, is unbibical and is contrary to what the Bible clearly states.

histruth · Aug 2, 2011

God's Word is FULL TO THE TOP of verses that state with CLARITY, that Jesus Christ died and rose again for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Here are a few, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (1st John 2:2) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, THE MAN, Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. (1st Timothy 2:3-6) For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM, MIGHT BE SAVED. (John 3:17) For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. (Romans 10:13) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. (John 12:32) For God is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness; but is LONG SUFFERING toward us; not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. (2nd Peter 3:9) Truly these times of ignorance GOD OVERLOOKED, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. (Acts 17:30) There are MANY other verses in the Bible that confirm the FACT that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL. Yes. He knows who WILL and who WON'T come to Him. Just like He knew that even though He delayed the flood 120 years so Christ could preach to them through Noah, nobody would listen, and only Noah and his family were saved. He still preached to them because He is LONG SUFFERING and FULL OF COMPASSION. Also, If there was no free will, than how did Eve CHOOSE TO EAT THE FRUIT? I hope this helps, and I pray that whoever is reading this will come to know that our God is the God of all comfort and LOVE. For John also says, "GOD IS LOVE"

Robs07M6S · Aug 2, 2011

histruth said:
God's Word is FULL TO THE TOP of verses that state with CLARITY, that Jesus Christ died and rose again for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Here are a few, And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. (1st John 2:2) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, THE MAN, Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time. (1st Timothy 2:3-6) For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM, MIGHT BE SAVED. (John 3:17) For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED. (Romans 10:13) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME. (John 12:32) For God is not slack concerning His promise as some count slackness; but is LONG SUFFERING toward us; not willing that ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE. (2nd Peter 3:9) Truly these times of ignorance GOD OVERLOOKED, but now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT. (Acts 17:30) There are MANY other verses in the Bible that confirm the FACT that Jesus died ONCE FOR ALL. Yes. He knows who WILL and who WON'T come to Him. Just like He knew that even though He delayed the flood 120 years so Christ could preach to them through Noah, nobody would listen, and only Noah and his family were saved. He still preached to them because He is LONG SUFFERING and FULL OF COMPASSION. Also, If there was no free will, than how did Eve CHOOSE TO EAT THE FRUIT? I hope this helps, and I pray that whoever is reading this will come to know that our God is the God of all comfort and LOVE. For John also says, "GOD IS LOVE"

What do we do with Mathew 26:28 ?

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

histruth · Aug 2, 2011

We understand that when Jesus says "many" it is because He knows who will and who won't. It definately does not mean that He pushes any away, for He died ONCE FOR ALL, as we've seen in the verses I posted. Everything God does, He does according to His FOREKNOWLEDGE. He knew those who would accept Him as Lord and Savior, and He wrote their names down in His book before the foundations of the world. However, it is His hearts desire that ALL PEOPLE would come to Him to let Him heal them. In fact, He predetirmines when and where people will be born, (and this is DEEP) in HOPE that they MIGHT grope for Him, and FIND HIM; though He is not far from each one of us. (Acts 17:26-27) It is God's heart breaking reality, to know who will and who won't. For the Bible also says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezekiel 18:32 and Ezekiel 33:11) Also, Jesus Himself gives us the reason why people go to hell, and it is because of their own FREE CHOICE. He says, " And this is the condemnation, that Light has come into the world, and men LOVED DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, because their DEEDS WERE EVIL. (John 3:19) Those who reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, do it because they love evil more than good, and are not WILLING to repent of their lifestyle and give their heart to Christ. I hope this helps. Sorry it took so long to get back to you but I had a long drive home. You can study more about this topic in a mini sermon I wrote called SETTLED LONG AGO. Just go to my website at histruthunfolding.com Love, joy, and peace be miltiplied.

His_disciple3 · Aug 2, 2011

GrayAngel said:
The thing is, your position is the only one I can conceive of that would fit under "neither," unless you didn't believe in God at all.

Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. What you're describing is not predestination, it's simple acknowledgement. One cannot become President and then be elected. Election comes first. Acknowledgement would be like in the case of a King taking a thrown, and then the people recognize him. But it's not election.

”

1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV
predstined are the elect here it says the elect was according to His foreknowledge, His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thought!

Jake255 · Aug 3, 2011

His_disciple3 said:
1 Peter 1:2
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
KJV
predstined are the elect here it says the elect was according to His foreknowledge, His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thought!

We must take the whole counsel of the Bible in order to reach any conclusions, you can not take one verse such as you have and ascribe it to a doctrine of predestination.

Paul even said to the unbelieving Gentiles "For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ Acts 17:28 NIV. In other words all men are God's children in a sense, (not in the spiritual rebirth sense), but in the creation of humans in the very image of God.

It is that very nature in is that will lead us to one of two responses 1). Pride, an attempt to elevate ourselves above God or 2). Submission, to submit to the authority of God and receive His free gift, partaking of the divine nature 2 Peter 1:4.

We all have body, soul and spirit in which the spirit is the very reason men are w/out excuse if we reject the witness of God "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." Romans 1:20 NIV

We are all tied to the Creator and all of us created in His likeness, His desire being that none would perish, but ALL come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

What do you believe in?

Do you believe in free will or predestination? (Baptists only)

Free will

Predestination

Neither

Undecided

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jesus is; the rest is commentary.

Lord forgive me

jesus is; the rest is commentary.

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Lord forgive me

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