What Do Non-Believers VALUE ?!?

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. A great gulf lies between heaven and hell. On the one side are God and his children. On the other side are the devil and his children. The difference between these groups is a difference in values. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44.

So, what is it that the Natural Man values? What are the lusts of the damned?

I think that the most important value of the Natural Man is autonomy. The Natural Man loves himself and wants to be subject to only the rules that he generates. He does not want to love God if that will interfere with his self-love. He does not want to give God legislative power if that eliminates his vote. So, he has a real problem with the messages in the Bible that he must love God rather than self, and that law is created by God the law-giver, without human input.

What other values do non-believers possess?

Ceridwen said:

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. A great gulf lies between heaven and hell. On the one side are God and his children. On the other side are the devil and his children. The difference between these groups is a difference in values. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44.

So, what is it that the Natural Man values? What are the lusts of the damned?

I think that the most important value of the Natural Man is autonomy. The Natural Man loves himself and wants to be subject to only the rules that he generates. He does not want to love God if that will interfere with his self-love. He does not want to give God legislative power if that eliminates his vote. So, he has a real problem with the messages in the Bible that he must love God rather than self, and that law is created by God the law-giver, without human input.

What other values do non-believers possess?

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It doesn't matter. What does matter is that they don't value Jesus. Anything placed above Christ is evil.

Ceridwen said:

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. A great gulf lies between heaven and hell. On the one side are God and his children. On the other side are the devil and his children. The difference between these groups is a difference in values. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44.

So, what is it that the Natural Man values? What are the lusts of the damned?

I think that the most important value of the Natural Man is autonomy. The Natural Man loves himself and wants to be subject to only the rules that he generates. He does not want to love God if that will interfere with his self-love. He does not want to give God legislative power if that eliminates his vote. So, he has a real problem with the messages in the Bible that he must love God rather than self, and that law is created by God the law-giver, without human input.

What other values do non-believers possess?

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Well said Ceridwen, I think you nailed it really. The sad part is, what man wants and desires, that is autonomy, is not and never will be the case or reality. In other words, autonomy is a sliver laced lie originating from the evil one in the garden of Eden.

Ceridwen said:

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. A great gulf lies between heaven and hell. On the one side are God and his children. On the other side are the devil and his children. The difference between these groups is a difference in values. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44. So, what is it that the Natural Man values? What are the lusts of the damned? I think that the most important value of the Natural Man is autonomy. The Natural Man loves himself and wants to be subject to only the rules that he generates. He does not want to love God if that will interfere with his self-love. He does not want to give God legislative power if that eliminates his vote. So, he has a real problem with the messages in the Bible that he must love God rather than self, and that law is created by God the law-giver, without human input. What other values do non-believers possess?

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Well I know they act off of moral law (which somehow wasn't designed by intelligence), the problem is their especially good for the reasons you said. When I was an atheist I made it a point to be a good person to prove I could without a God. It's quite immature and most do it.

Non believers also obsess over God, hence the countless attacks on Christians and their invasion of this website. Sigh.

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. -- Heywood Broun

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathon Miller

It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists. --Mohandas Gandhi

Atheists express their rage against God although in their view He does not exist. --C. S. Lewis

There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. --Mignon McLaughlin

A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. There are traps everywhere--'Bibles laid open, millions of surprises,' as Herbert says, 'fine nets and stratagems.' God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous. --C.S. Lewis

I think the ultimate value of non-believers is power. Just being a law unto themselves is an empty space they then must fill with as much all-mightiness as they can muster. This is why they are so eager to cultivate and control the power of spirits or nature or kundalini or money or whatever.

When this impulse really takes control it becomes equally "good" in their eyes to destroy others because that simultaneously proves their own power as well as feeding from the power of the ones they destroy. I think this is because the nature of ambition always has an aspect of becoming greater than or richer than or more powerful than others. If you take the other down then you make yourself higher.

In John Milton's poem Paradise Lost, Satan says: "Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heav’n." C.S. Lewis's book Great Divorce contains the statement: “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ And those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done." The nonbeliever in hell is there because he wishes to make his own laws and does not want to submit to the laws made by Yahweh. But, does he in the end rule in hell? No. He is ruled by his lusts and passions. Moreover, the law of Yahweh still bears upon him because he tastes the curse that God is rendering upon him as a punishment for sin. It's not possible for him to live outside from under God's jurisdiction, even in hell.

I like what Ruxby said -- a large part of autonomy (perhaps the largest part) -- is the desire to exercise power. The ability to make one's own laws is a kind of exercise of a power. The nonbeliever wishes that the power to make law lies only in his hands and not in the hands of Yahweh. Not only does he want to have power relative to God, but he also wishes to overpower his fellow humans. Likely he wishes to overpower his father Satan as well. Does the nonbeliever have a sense of GROUP power, or GROUP law-making? This sense would make the non-believer participate in negotiation, compromise, and cooperation.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Well said Ceridwen, I think you nailed it really. The sad part is, what man wants and desires, that is autonomy, is not and never will be the case or reality. In other words, autonomy is a sliver laced lie originating from the evil one in the garden of Eden.

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Yes, it is the lie of humanism first proposed and promised in the garden. That the created creature can be independent and self sufficient, which only God is.

Ceridwen said:

Does the nonbeliever have a sense of GROUP power, or GROUP law-making? This sense would make the non-believer participate in negotiation, compromise, and cooperation.

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I think it's more like animal cunning - the way random dogs can immediately coalesce into a hunting pack and individually adopt optimal group tactics for the kill. Ultimately and quite quickly there will always be a hierarchy - a top dog - not necessarily the strongest or smartest but the most evil. The leaders of rival groups in prison for instance are often not the most powerful physically.

Ceridwen said:

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight." Luke 16:15. A great gulf lies between heaven and hell. On the one side are God and his children. On the other side are the devil and his children. The difference between these groups is a difference in values. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do." John 8:44.

So, what is it that the Natural Man values? What are the lusts of the damned?

I think that the most important value of the Natural Man is autonomy. The Natural Man loves himself and wants to be subject to only the rules that he generates. He does not want to love God if that will interfere with his self-love. He does not want to give God legislative power if that eliminates his vote. So, he has a real problem with the messages in the Bible that he must love God rather than self, and that law is created by God the law-giver, without human input.

What other values do non-believers possess?

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Firstly I like your avatar.

Secondly the lusts of the damned are no different than the lusts of the saved, however atheists and agnostics relish in their lusts where the saved abhor them. I was recently wondering why atheists are so angry in their opposition to those of faith, why should it matter to them? It's because they can't understand or see God's plan of salvation, they are blind and deaf to the message of the gospel and it makes no sense to them. As it was written in scripture,
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

1 Corinthians 1:18-19

JustAsIam77 said:

the lusts of the damned are no different than the lusts of the saved, however atheists and agnostics relish in their lusts where the saved abhor them.

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I'm not sure I can agree with this. I believe that for Christians, the lusts of the damned are substituted with satisfaction from the perception of the divine nature. The converted Christian does not seek his own good, but the good of God. Does not make his own rules, but obeys God. Does not wish to exercise power, but submit to the will of the Father. He no longer loves the world and the things of this world, but loves God.

As Jonathan Edwards said, "The first effect of the power of God in the heart in regeneration is to give the heart a Divine taste or sense; to cause it to have a relish of the loveliness and sweetness of the supreme excellency of the Divine nature." Jonathan Edwards, Treatise on Grace. There is a change in values that a person undergoes when he becomes a Christian.

Ceridwen said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this. I believe that for Christians, the lusts of the damned are substituted with satisfaction from the perception of the divine nature. The converted Christian does not seek his own good, but the good of God. Does not make his own rules, but obeys God. Does not wish to exercise power, but submit to the will of the Father. He no longer loves the world and the things of this world, but loves God.

As Jonathan Edwards said, "The first effect of the power of God in the heart in regeneration is to give the heart a Divine taste or sense; to cause it to have a relish of the loveliness and sweetness of the supreme excellency of the Divine nature." Jonathan Edwards, Treatise on Grace. There is a change in values that a person undergoes when he becomes a Christian.

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Regarding lusts of the flesh..

I applaud the most honorable sentiments of Jonathan Edwards but I believe the apostle Paul was direct and honest when speaking about this very subject, I as a Christian can relate more to Paul's thoughts on this:

For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Romans 7:15-25

Ceridwen said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this. I believe that for Christians, the lusts of the damned are substituted with satisfaction from the perception of the divine nature. The converted Christian does not seek his own good, but the good of God. Does not make his own rules, but obeys God. Does not wish to exercise power, but submit to the will of the Father. He no longer loves the world and the things of this world, but loves God.

As Jonathan Edwards said, "The first effect of the power of God in the heart in regeneration is to give the heart a Divine taste or sense; to cause it to have a relish of the loveliness and sweetness of the supreme excellency of the Divine nature." Jonathan Edwards, Treatise on Grace. There is a change in values that a person undergoes when he becomes a Christian.

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well said, absolutely there is a change, it would be a mockery to the Holy Spirit and His power otherwise!

To the OP, please understand that every post that I have made on this forum since December of 06' is from the perspective of a person who was raised in a legalistic environment and it was enlightening when I found Christ had paid in full for my sin, sure I was changed forever in the twinkling of an eye but sin still exists in the life of a Christian.

JustAsIam77 said:

To the OP, please understand that every post that I have made on this forum since December of 06' is from the perspective of a person who was raised in a legalistic environment and it was enlightening when I found Christ had paid in full for my sin, sure I was changed forever in the twinkling of an eye but sin still exists in the life of a Christian.

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You are right, brother but I think it's important to be waring against sin constantly for a Christian. We can't just sit back and let it consume us and dictate our lives. Yes - we will fail. I know I do a lot! But we have got to keep coming at it. The war is won, no doubt. We are under grace and forgiven but the battle against sin rages on until we are finally glorified in eternity.

If there is an internal war within a person about what it is that they love and what brings them satisfaction, I would have serious questions about whether they are a son of Yahweh or a son of Satan. When a person converts, their values are genuinely different and not theoretically or hypothetically different. A Christian does not simultaneously agree and disagree with Yahweh's judgments. Does not simultaneously hate and love what God loves. God is not at the same time loved and hated. The questions are answered, the matters are resolved, the controversy settled. Either the love for the Father is in a person, or is not.

1 John 2:15-17 (NIV)
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Ceridwen said:

If there is an internal war within a person about what it is that they love and what brings them satisfaction, I would have serious questions about whether they are a son of Yahweh or a son of Satan. When a person converts, their values are genuinely different and not theoretically or hypothetically different. A Christian does not simultaneously agree and disagree with Yahweh's judgments. Does not simultaneously hate and love what God loves. God is not at the same time loved and hated. The questions are answered, the matters are resolved, the controversy settled. Either the love for the Father is in a person, or is not.

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In light of Romans 7 I would say you have serious questions on whether Paul was a son of Yahweh then. Perhaps you do - care to tell us if you do? You make it sound like a Christian should attain perfection upon conversion - and that is clearly not the case as portrayed in scripture. Regardless anyone engaged in fighting sin in their personal lives clearly does not love it.

1 John 2:15-17 (NIV)
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

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This does not mean that a Christian will not sin. In fact John says in the same book if that we say we do not have sin we make God out to be a liar. The issue isn't sin - because we all (you included) still sin. The issue is are we engaged in fighting to eradicate it from our lives. A true Christian will be engaged in this battle.

NickCamp said:

Well I know they act off of moral law (which somehow wasn't designed by intelligence), the problem is their especially good for the reasons you said. When I was an atheist I made it a point to be a good person to prove I could without a God. It's quite immature and most do it.

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I was just that way, thinking something along the lines of, "I can be just fine without God." It seemed I wanted to prove to the world that someone can be a good person without God. And it's very strange as your post suggests, that why would someone feel so strongly about something which doesn't exist to them? Why would they not be indifferent? It's as though the atheist subconsciously knows there is a God and that he must account to God for his actions, yet he hates Him so much he'll do anything to get away from that responsibility, even so much as deluding himself into not believing there is a God.

Ceridwen said:

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them.

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Personally I feel the quote involves two different kinds of love, especially since there are two different words for love in the Greek that are used in that verse. The first two are from the Greek agapao meaning to love in a social or moral sense--it seems to involve love in such a way as to become "caught up" in it: to derive moral values from it (and to want to socialize in it: "fit in" or "conform to" more or less is how I read that) is my opinion of how it is used. The last term is from the word agape: to have affection, benevolence.

We are not to have agapao love for the world. As I read further on, it seems agapao love can be for others, but agape love is for God: in 4:7 we read that we are to love (agapao) one another for love (agape) is of God [though we can also have agapao love for God, as in 4:19, "We love (agapao) Him because he first loved (same agapao) us", which makes sense as we should derive our morals from Him and want to commune with Him socially, fit in and conform to Him, not the world]. It seems agape love is of God and agapao is the love which is manifested in us toward things--could be the world, which demonstrates one who is not of God, yet it should be toward others as demonstrated in 4:7 as well as 3:11--we should love (agapao) one another.


Now we must also wonder though: When God wrote the verse in John "For God so loved the world" He is using the "agapao" word--so, He was so caught up in it? My view is that yes, He *was*--He did originally instill the world with all His morals and in it we were supposed to have perfect communion with Him. With the entrance of sin into the world though, all that was corrupted. My personal opinion is this original world is what God is talking about when He says He so loved the world.

Behe's Boy said:

In light of Romans 7 I would say you have serious questions on whether Paul was a son of Yahweh then. Perhaps you do - care to tell us if you do? You make it sound like a Christian should attain perfection upon conversion - and that is clearly not the case as portrayed in scripture. Regardless anyone engaged in fighting sin in their personal lives clearly does not love it.

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Thus also why Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." Let His grace be sufficient for us and know that to deny our infirmities is similar to denying the saving power of God.

Ceridwen said:

If there is an internal war within a person about what it is that they love and what brings them satisfaction, I would have serious questions about whether they are a son of Yahweh or a son of Satan. When a person converts, their values are genuinely different and not theoretically or hypothetically different. A Christian does not simultaneously agree and disagree with Yahweh's judgments. Does not simultaneously hate and love what God loves. God is not at the same time loved and hated. The questions are answered, the matters are resolved, the controversy settled. Either the love for the Father is in a person, or is not.

1 John 2:15-17 (NIV)
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

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Dear sister in Christ, we are all a work in progress after becoming Christians.

We will war against sin in our lifetime until we are glorified after this life.

I hate sin yet I'm still a sinner that is why I lean on Christ alone for salvation.

I bring nothing to offer God for my salvation except my faith in Christ.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:8