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What caused the Universe?

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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It's also why nobody has a sincere conversation with you.
Because they end up being convicted?

Because they know that, sooner or later, they are going to get the word of God?
 
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quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
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Then what's the problem with me doing it?
Well, you regularly bend out of shape when others do it to you. So I guess you know exactly what the problem is.

Can't I ... ahem ... ape His style?
Yes, obviously you can ape around to your heart's desire.
 
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AV1611VET

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Do what you want. But annoying rhetoric is never productive.
Well it's not sugar-coated rhetoric, that's for sure.

If it didn't annoy you, then something's wrong somewhere.

I don't know how many times my pastor has said, "If this message didn't bother you, you'd better check where you stand with the LORD!"
 
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HitchSlap

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Well it's not sugar-coated rhetoric, that's for sure.

If it didn't annoy you, then something's wrong somewhere.

I don't know how many times my pastor has said, "If this message didn't bother you, you'd better check where you stand with the LORD!"
Just can't help yourself, can you. Just don't feign dismay when you think someone won't answer "honestly."

Lol
 
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quatona

"God"? What do you mean??
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Well it's not sugar-coated rhetoric, that's for sure.
indeed, it´s empty and not even sugar coated. No substance, no content and not even anything around appealing it.

If it didn't annoy you, then something's wrong somewhere.
So you admit you are purposefully, intentionally and deliberately annoying? OK.

I don't know how many times my pastor has said, "If this message didn't bother you, you'd better check where you stand with the LORD!"
He spoke about a bothering message. Not about annoying empty rhethoric.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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In view of the idea that the goal of 'actual experts' is to sterilize every jot & tittle of the Bible, I have a feeling you're in for some more bafflement.
Why would anyone want a sterile tittle?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Chriliman, you came into this in the middle, so let's back up and look at the conversation that led to this. Some have been arguing that it would be logically impossible for the laws and forces of nature--call it nature's god--to create anything, but it would be logically possible for God to do it. That is a bogus argument. It is special pleading to say the argument applies only if you capitalize the g. If it is logically possible for your God to do it, then it is logically possible for Hawking's god to do it.

If the true God is the only being in existence capable of creating matter where there was none before then there can't be another god who is capable of the same. Agreed?
That is a tautology.

If the true Thor is the only being in existence capable of creating matter where there was none before, then there can't be another god who is capable of the same. Agreed?

See? Two can play that game.
You like your God's reason for doing it. Therefore your God did it? I don't think that is a valid argument.

You're expecting human scientific minds to reveal what is true about origins
Scientists have done an amazing job so far, so yes, I expect them to reveal more about origins.

But no, I don't expect them to ever understand origins fully.
 
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Radrook

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Do you notice how it doesn't bother them one iota that they cannot really prove that the data provided by their senses is really representative of what lies what appears to be outside or that their minds? Yet they are very vehement when comes to anything concerning a creator? That is a major inconsistency.
 
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Radrook

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Because natural forces don't have a mind and the universe displays the activity of a mind.
You are in denial. But denial will not make it go away.

 
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Kenny'sID

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You are right, and I'm beginning to see that among other things. It seems the more they argue their point, the less valid it becomes, while validating creation.

I know they don't like common sense, but if they even had some decent common sense reason not to believe, I might at least understand their side, but there is nothing but nothing.
 
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HitchSlap

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Creationism is a lost cause. It's a dead-end proposition, with nowhere to go but dumb.
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Nothing that he might present you with will be accepted as evidence. That is called invincible ignorance.
Resorting to ad hominems, huh?

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. Do you have any reason for believing Victorinus's argument that don't involve resorting to logical fallacies?
 
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doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
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Because natural forces don't have a mind and the universe displays the activity of a mind.
That is very different argument from the Kalam argument that has prevailed on this thread. So folks are now starting to realize there is no logical necessity that the universe had to be created by God? They turn now to arguing from complexity?

If everything complex requires a mind to create it, then your God requires a mind to create him. But if you say your God always existed, then I say that the basic creative forces and laws behind the universe always existed.
 
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