What are we doing wrong as christians.

I highly recomend reading Bonhoeffer's the price of salvation. the concept of "cheap grace" as he puts it is exactly what's wrong

Because we have not kept the commands Jesus gave we find ourselves with a host off problems all of which would be solves by going out and serving, by feeding the master's sheep.

cardoctor said:

I highly recomend reading Bonhoeffer's the price of salvation. the concept of "cheap grace" as he puts it is exactly what's wrong

Because we have not kept the commands Jesus gave we find ourselves with a host off problems all of which would be solves by going out and serving, by feeding the master's sheep.

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"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
Mind with authority as in you taking it be your self sees good and evil and in the depth of it is it veiling your true self to an extent that you can just as well say that you are dead, driven by feelings and thoughts, it is sin which means to miss the mark, you cant see, it is the sight that Jesus gave back to people in the story as he brought the dead to life.
It is mind that thinks it can find its self through books, a new identity, it is temporary.

Unfortunately many Christians put their personal wealth ahead of helping others. It's hypocritical, but I see it all the time. They care more about their bank statements and Worldy "stuff" than they do about supporting their church, missionaries, charities, etc. This doesn't apply to all of course, but it's blatantly evident across America.

I am so and so --> Transition --> I am.

crixus said:

Unfortunately many Christians put their personal wealth ahead of helping others. It's hypocritical, but I see it all the time. They care more about their bank statements and Worldy "stuff" than they do about supporting their church, missionaries, charities, etc. This doesn't apply to all of course, but it's blatantly evident across America.

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Jesus said deny your self and i understand that you speak of postponement of that but Jesus also said seek first the kingdom of god. How can that mean to support your church first, is that not also postponement?

Alias1234 said:

Jesus said deny your self and i understand that you speak of postponement of that but Jesus also said seek first the kingdom of god. How can that mean to support your church first, is that not also postponement?

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You can't be serious?

We are seeking the kingdom of God when we support the church, because they send out missionaries to share His word. And sharing God's word IS one of the ways to seek the kingdom of God. It's in the Bible and that's all the verification a Christian should need. You either believe it...or don't.

crixus said:

You can't be serious?

We are seeking the kingdom of God when we support the church, because they send out missionaries to share His word. And sharing God's word IS one of the ways to seek the kingdom of God. It's in the Bible and that's all the verification a Christian should need. You either believe it...or don't.

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Jesus spoke of denying ones self.
Simon Peter asked him, Lord, where are you going? Jesus replied, Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.
Peter asked, Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.
Then Jesus answered, Will you really lay down your life for me? Very truly I tell you, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!
It means that when you are serious is it common to run away with an idea of ones self and because Jesus was about to free people from their idea did he become a threat when they understood.
Any idea veils Christ.
Seek first the kingdom of god.

bobbarry said:

Anyone else frustrated??

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This world is not all there is, this world is not our home. Our citizenship is in heaven. The Lord shall come soon and set all things right, in the meantime just remain faithful. The Lord did not say it would be easy, but he did say there would be a reward for those who are faithful until the day of his coming.

Alias1234 said:

Jesus spoke of denying ones self.
Simon Peter asked him, Lord, where are you going? Jesus replied, Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.
Peter asked, Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you.
Then Jesus answered, Will you really lay down your life for me? Very truly I tell you, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!
It means that when you are serious is it common to run away with an idea of ones self and because Jesus was about to free people from their idea did he become a threat when they understood.
Any idea veils Christ.
Seek first the kingdom of god.

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You quote part of the Bible, yet leave the part about the (topic at hand) out. So you're obviously not serious about the scriptures and that's a shame. - Goodbye

crixus said:

You quote part of the Bible, yet leave the part about the (topic at hand) out. So you're obviously not serious about the scriptures and that's a shame. - Goodbye

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I am talking about the topic.
Jesus expressed the cross of denying ones self, my god my god why have you forsaken me.
His true self and god was reveald to him.
That is why he said, "Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it".

I think that without knowledge and understanding of the Bible it is impossible to be a Christian, and even more, to receive the Holy Spirit. The purpose of the Bible to educate people and bring them to GOD, means to separate people from this world and bring them to the next, to the real word, our real home, from which our souls came from, to meet and to live forever with our true Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ our Savior, and with Their Holy Spirit, and with angels of GOD.

I think Bobbarry took it from the wrong side, he insisted that Holy Spirit must be obtain first, and then the scriptures of the Bible will be understood. Does anyone ever tried to be a doctor for example, but to take 6 years of medical school later, after he or she will regain experience in medical field without proper education?

Above all, it is very common mistake to rely only on the Gospel of Christ, the Old Testament is the beginning of the Gospel of Christ, and without Old Testament will be no Gospel, just like without GOD Father will be no Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ, particularly in the Evangeline of John numerous times mentioned and announced that He came from the Father, does thing of His Father, and speaks from His Father, and always quoted words of His Father and of the prophets of the Old Testament constantly.

Both Testaments of the Bible is not for the reading, but for the study, it is not a literature, or novel, or a tale, but it is an educational tool, it is a spiritual food for our souls, and as was described in previous replies a "Manual", which explains to us the purpose of our lives and guides us to the true Faith in our GOD.

Without knowledge and understanding of the Bible, Holy Spirit of the Lord cannot be obtained. It is like to put on yourself a generals' uniform and pretend to be a general, without actually to be one.

Holy Spirit comes to those who search for GOD, means those who study Bible and wanted to have knowledge and understanding of it. The Holy Spirit inters such person and dwells in him or her only on condition that a person truly wanted to know GOD, to be with Him, and to follow Him.

And only time you can notice a Holy Spirit in you, when in any situation of your life the verses of the Holy Scripture come to you mind through your conscience, and you follow them, and this is the work of the Holy Spirit in you.


2Chronicles 15.2
2.He went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Hear me Asa and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you, but if you abandon Him, He will abandon you.

Isaiah 55.6
6.Seek the Lord while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near,

John 5.39
39."You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is that testify on My behalf."

So I believe that we shall study Bible first, from the Genesis all the way to the Revelation, because it is one continues line of the history of humankind. And the Holy Spirit of GOD will descend on those who truly and from the heart searches for GOD in order to know Him, to serve Him, and to be with Him forever and ever.


And by the way, why you Bobbarry asked so hard for the Holy Spirit, what the purpose of your request?

We picked up the cross, we are feeling lonely and we are feeling that we are doing something wrong.
Some denies their self but postpone their cross though their love to their idea of them self is greater than god.
Some denies their self and picks up the cross, a burden Jesus asked god to be free from but went through, let your will be done, not mine.
It reveald to him as he died on the cross.
"This is why I speak to them in parables, though seeing, they do not see, though hearing, they do not hear or understand."

Dear bobbarry. A short answer is: we are not using our Love, as God wants us to use is: our Love is our great weapon, with love we can overcome all enmity and wrong behaviour. Let there be love in all we do and all we say, all we advice and all stand for. God is Love, and with God on our side, what or who, can be against us? It might be strange for us to start with, but gradually and surly, we will turn into the men and women which God wants us to become. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Bobbarry, we are definitely on different planets concerning the view on the Holy Spirit of GOD. Your opinion based on something that you truly believe in, on the other hand my opinion based purely on the Scriptures of the Bible. So, we will never get to a point of agreement and most likely will continue to argue forever, but it is OK, our differences not only take us apart away from one another, but also in some instances and cases get us close together.

But I would like to clarify the point concerning the Holy Spirit of GOD. As human beings we already have a Spirit of GOD in us when the Lord GOD breathed His, not Holy, but His life giving spirit in us. (Genesis 1.7)

The Holy Spirit of GOD at some points in time descends on selected people, in order to perform certain tasks otherwise impossible for human being to perform, but after a while always ascended back. For example:

Bezalel received Holy Spirit of GOD to perform works as the master man in gold and silver, to created items for the Tabernacle, which he never did before and had no knowledge of such works ever before. (Exodus 31.2-6)
Moses received Holy Spirit of GOD to perform miracles in Egypt, and done numerous miracles for 40 years in the desert. (Too many links to place here)
Even on the donkey of Balaam Holy Spirit of GOD descended in order that it can speak and warn its master of danger. (Numbers 22.22-30)
Shamgar, Gideon, Samson, and many other deliverers of Israel in the Book of Judges, they are also received the Holy Spirit of GOD, Who gave them extraordinary physical powers.
Saul, first king of United Israel, he prophesied naked when the Holy Spirit of GOD descended on him.
And almost every prophet of GOD mentioned in the Bible had certain powers of the Holy Spirit, to prophesy, to perform all kind of miracles, to heal, to kill, and even to resurrect to life the dead.
When Jesus sent His Apostles and after them another 500 of His disciples to preach the Gospel to the world, on them also was the Holy Spirit of GOD.

As you can see, Holy Spirit descends on certain people and enable them to perform certain tasks for the glory of GOD. But concerning our sins, our temptations, our desires, our weaknesses, our immorality, our evil, and other negative things that we all have, of course Holy Spirit can remove them all, and make us all clean, faithful, righteous, good, and pleasant people, without any effort on our part.

Is this what you want and expect from the Holy Spirit?

Unfortunately it does not work in such way. Without effort on our part, without struggle, and without fight with our own demons, no one can receive Holy Spirit for nothing. And if it comes to such extreme, here the words of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 18.8-9
8."If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away, it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than to have two hands or two feet and to be thrown into the eternal fire.
9.And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out and throw it away, it is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and to be thrown into the hell of fire."

Mark 9.43.45.47
43."If you hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell to the unquenchable fire,
45.And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off, it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell,
47.And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out, it is better for you to enter the Kingdom of GOD with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,"

I am not suggestion to anyone to cause themselves any physical harm in order to be free from all sorts of desires and temptations that tormenting us, because these verses must be understood not literally but symbolically, as a figure of speech, indicating that we have to do everything possible on our part to resist and to fight against our own ungodly and sinful desires, and ask for help from the Lord as well, in order to receive from Him support in such struggle against our own transgression and iniquities that we committing almost on the daily basis.

But I strongly believe, that without knowledge, understanding, and inspiration from the Holy Bible the Word of GOD, it is not likely that someone can obtain the Holy Spirit of GOD as help to confront own demons, because without knowing the word GOD, His statutes and His commandments, GOD usually does not respond to those who does not know His word and do not follow His statutes and His commandments, so there is no easy way out from such situation.

Even Apostle Paul struggle with his negativity, whatever it was in Paul.

7.And because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan, to buffet (rock, pound, batter) me, to keep me from exalting myself!
8.Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9.And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weakness, that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

This means that when we truly and honestly struggle with our weaknesses, employing all our powers, mental, spiritual, and physical, and in addition employing the power of the word of GOD and the knowledge of His commandments, inspired by wisdom of the ideals and principals of the Lord, just like Jesus Christ did when He was tempted by the Devil and quoted to the Devil the words from the Law of Moses, so and do we shall do the same when we tempted by our desires and weaknesses, and grow strong by the word of GOD in our faith and in our resistance to ungodly temptations.

Remember, that our ungodly temptation and desires will never go away completely, they are our companions for life, and nothing can keep them at bay as the word of GOD, in which actually and resided the Holy Spirit of GOD, and more you learn and understand the word of GOD, the more of the Holy Spirit will be resided in you, and will give you more resistance against any types of evil or ungodliness in you, just like Jesus Christ did when He resisted Devil by the Holy Spirit of the word of GOD.

GOD bless you, and help you with your struggle.

Alex

Yes Holy Spirit can be received when the hands of holy men laid on the heads of the chosen people, and Holy Spirit can be obtained in many other ways. But you miss important point here, that the Holy Spirit was laid not on everyone, and not on those who just want it so bad, but on the particular group of selected men.

This means that before Law of Moses and the Gospel of Christ some people received Holy Spirit of GOD because GOD chose them, according to their character, personality, and faith in Him.

During the Law of Moses some people received Holy Spirit according to the Law of Moses, means that those who obeyed the Law of GOD and prove to be faithful to Him from whole their heart and from whole their soul, Holy Spirit of GOD descended on them in order to perform certain tasks. Most of the time such people have been appointed by GOD as the prophets.

During the Gospel of Christ some people received Holy Spirit for the same purpose, to prophesy, to heal, to resurrect dead, and to conduct miracles for the glory of GOD, and by such work turn people to GOD.

Do you belong to any of these three category of people? Probably not?

Such selected men already have been proficient in the Gospel of Christ, understood the Message of GOD, turn their life around to serve the Lord (means denied themselves from everything earthly and concentrated on the spiritually of GOD, another word, have been born again, but this time spiritually born), followed GOD'S statutes and commandments accordingly, and in their hearts dedicated themselves to the Lord, leaving behind earthly pursues and everything what previously they cherish, love, and treasured on Earth.

You will see my point if you don't take verses out of their context and create your own versions of it, but will take a look at the whole paragraph or chapter in order to see the whole theme and the meaning of the subject written. Only those receive Holy Spirit who deserved it, and the Holy Spirit never has been given to a stranger of to those who unworthy to receive it.

Again, you tried to find a short cut in order to receive Holy Spirit, there is no such a thing as a short cut in anything, and particularly concerning GOD'S order of things. GOD created and placed everything orderly and according to the level and importance of priorities, but your priorities out of place. Again, you cannot be admitted to the college if you didn't finish the High School.

You also jump to a different subject of "born again", and here is the fact, that people do not "born again" because of the Holy Spirit, but "born again" from the word of GOD, means took the commandments, statutes, principals, and ideals of GOD to their hearts and changed their lives from earthly men to the spiritual men of GOD, by following and obeying all His statutes and commandments, and only then they received Holy Spirit as an indication and proof of their new status in GOD, as people who are born again spiritually, because they open their hearts to GOD, and the Holy Spirit of GOD came into their souls as a Guide of their lives.

"Born again" it is not the job of the Holy Spirit, but our personal issue, our full responsibility, and our personal job to do, it relates to our own personal being when we grow spiritually in our knowledge and understanding of the word of GOD, and only then the Holy Spirit inters into us, into already prepared and fertile ground of our soul.

So the order of thing according to the Holy Scripture is this:

First, you have to study Bible and obtain the knowledge and understanding of the word of GOD.
Second, you have to believe in GOD and have strong faith in Him.
Third, you have to be "born again", which means to dedicate you life to follow and obey all GOD'S commandments and statutes, and live according to His principals and ideals.
Fourth, your have to open your soul to GOD in order to receive Him, in order that He can come in and reside in you.

When GOD enters in you, He will guide you by sending certain messages into your mind based on His principals and ideals, and each time you confront something in you life, the verses of the Bible automatically will come to your mind, and you will know what to do and what to answer, and what to say almost in every situation of your life. This will show that you are indeed "born again spiritually", and will prove that you are indeed have the Holy Spirit of GOD in you.

Everything I wrote here are not from my personal opinion or point of view whatever I agree or disagree with the verses of the Bible, but all my opinions and points of view about themes and subjects of the Bible directly based on the scriptures of the Bible. So again I have to repeat this, there is nothing can happen positive to a man unless he or she obtains the knowledge and understanding of the Holy Scripture. Sure certain exceptions have been made from this order of things, but you are not one of them.

Take a better and more serious look at the Holy Bible, and have desire to obtain the knowledge of His word, and GOD, then He sees your effort, He will also add and understanding to your knowledge, because the understanding of His word comes only from Him, and as result of your search, knowledge, and understanding, you also will receive and the Holy Spirit, Who may or may not will deliver you from your own demons and uncertainties.

1John 5.4
4."Whoever is born of GOD overcomes the world, and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith."


Where faith comes from? From the knowledge of GOD and from understanding of His commandments and Laws.
So, how you can have faith if you do not know GOD and His commandments?

Good luck.

It's biblical to struggle with sin. My church is going through Romans this whole year we just went over Romans 7 yesterday. The simple fact is that our flesh is always going to hold us back it is normal for Christians to stubble with sin we always will until we have our new bodies in heaven. Paul talks about this saying that the law is the measuring stick of sin so we know right from wrong. The law points out our sin but it can not redeem us from our sin. Paul talks about how frustrated he is that he continues to do what he hates even he as a man of God continued to struggle with sin we all do. The sin will never go away but it is how we deal with it that matters. We lay it before God and let him do a work in us step by step and then we move on to the next thing. God will never abandon us and he will never not help us move through our sin, but sin will be there it is the curse of our flesh from Adam and Eve.

So yes it is normal for Christians who love God to still struggle with sin.

bobbarry said:

Trust me, i too thought the same way both of you do for over ten years...but it's not the truth. Alex, all believer's must be born again...answer me this...with what are we born again with?? we are born again by the spirit...the holy spirit of God.

If you are not born again you will still be in the flesh...and God said in that bible you have...the flesh cant please him at all...no matter how many good works it does...it wont please him. Jesus said the flesh is no use at all. And also paul spoke of your flesh being crucified/put to death, thats not something to believe, thats something that actually happens.
The purpose of the bible is not to educate people, but educate people that have been born again with the spirit. The book's true meaning will be locked to you until you receive the holy spirirt. Thats why we've got so many people believing so many different things. Thats why we've got people taking scriptures from here, there and everywhere that contadict each other it's because they dont have the spirit to teach them the true meaning, it will break down verse after verse for you.

The devils greatest trick is to get believer's believing they have the spirit.

What's happening is we dont receive it...but we believe that we have it...then go to the bible and think it's applies to us...and it doesn't. Thats why it wont work, the things jesus told you wont work...so we change what he meant, i can give you scripture after scripture of things jesus told you that wont work for you...it's not because he lied it's because he's speaking to people with the holy spirit inside them, not the people he was actually speaking to at the time but for the readers. Thats why pastors preach Romans 7 as being pauls current position because, the pastors are still stuck in there sin...they actually are in the position paul was talking about. Because they dont have the spirit of God inside them. Paul was talking about his flesh - (fleshly nature - which is a slave to sin) before he was born again...the day you receive the spirit of God you are no longer a fleshly creature...if you want to test me on that put up scripture that appears as if paul and others were still in the flesh or talking of their flesh...on closer examination you'll find i m right.

I m not condemning them for it, it's not there fault, they're being deceived.

You can receive it and leave no doubt whatsoever and have a victorious life that can please God, it's not like i m saying to people it's too late for you, you've no hope...i m saying it's available now.
The kingdom of God is for here and now! As hard as that is to beleive jesus mentioned that.

You wrote...Holy Spirit never has been given to a stranger of to those who unworthy to receive it.


Saul.

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I am sorry but I disagree with you are saying Romans 7 is written by an unsaved Paul. When there are 5 clear things about the text that show he was a saved man writing about his struggles as a saved man. These are my notes from church yesterday.

1. He is speaking in present tense not past tense
2. He uses the phrase "no longer' several times
3. He states many time he wants what God wants an unsaved man would not care about what God wants.
4. He says "I want this sin out of me" clearly only a saved man would not want to sin anymore. Only a saved man would be turning to God to be changed.
5. He speaks of worshipping God. An unsaved man would not be concerned with worship.

(verse 13-15) See myself in the light of the law- sinful beyond measure.

From one degree to the next God works in us. Our flesh still fighting all the way. We never see once in the Bible God take someone and make them 100% righteous over night. Step by step we sees process of relying on God and let him move in man. His glory is what changes you not your effort. We even see Jesus being tempted by sin again because of his flesh the human part of him still was slaved to sin he was able to fight it because he was also God. But his flesh was tempted by sin until the day his flesh body died.

(verse 16-20) I am no longer defined by the flesh. I agree with the law, and the war between flesh and spirit is on.

Romans 7:18 "I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out"

In conclusion Paul was saved in this scripture it is normal to fight and struggle with sin even for Christians. The different between us and the unsaved is we have the law to see that we have sin, and we deal with it by using it to strengthen our relationship with God.