What are we doing wrong as christians.

bobbarry · Jan 9, 2014

Jesus said Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. We then totally contradict these words with the one or two verses taking from the bible from here, there and everywhere and say how hard/difficult it will be that we actually revel in it. Explain to me what jesus was talking about here??...i ll tell you it's the holy spirit that we all claim to have inside us. But we dont have it you know why because we dont have rest for our souls or have an easy yoke or have a light burden. We can sit and analyse paul's verses lets analyse what jesus said. We cancel out what jesus said with what paul said with what we're teaching and lack of understanding.

You've said When we become aware that life will give us more than we can handle and come to grips with this, we find a promise: God is faithful to meet us in the mess and in the pain. And when He does, we learn to recognize our constant need to depend on Him. This is why Peter instructs the Church to cast our fears, worries, suffering and pain on God. He reasons we can do this because God cares for us. When life deals us more than we can handle, we can rest in the reality that God can handle it.

My question is what about the many many christians today that are all over the internet, churches that have had enough, some suicidal, god is faithful to meet us in our mess and in our pain...where and when is he meeting them? He's not and he wont with what we're teaching. Someone came on here today and said he'd had enough, he was ready to kill himself and our replies were go and paint your aunts house, there's more you could be doing here on earth and things like that. No offence to the fella that posted that because it was good intentional.

My main question is this...the holy spirit that baptised Jesus, Moses, Paul andStephen is this the same holy spirit that you received??

Pick up your cross and follow me, thats talking about people before they were born again believe it or not...because your about to be crucified on that cross here and now, and you will be glorified just the same way Jesus was. The flesh dies on that cross and then the spirit is born again the same way jesus was raised up it's spiritual...no one is talking anything like that and thats why you've got answers like paint your aunts house to save a man from suicide.

I hope i dont offend people with this post and thank you for replying

ThisBrotherOfHis · Jan 9, 2014

bobbarry said:
My question is what about the many many christians today that are all over the internet, churches that have had enough, some suicidal, god is faithful to meet us in our mess and in our pain...where and when is he meeting them?

Everywhere. If you're not seeing it, you're not looking. We had a man in our church suffer a severe spinal injury in a skiing accident. We went to his bedside, prayed over him -- no, we didn't lay hands on him or shout for healing. We asked God's will to be done, and prayed that His will would be that the man would walk again. In God's timing. Nearly a year later, he's markedly improved. The rehab center sent him home because he advanced so much farther and faster than they anticipated they decided his church family and his actual family would do more for him than they could keeping him there. He is in outpatient therapy, is walking with a cane after being told he would never walk again, and needs only to restore strength in his hands to be 90%.

bobbarry said:
He's not and he wont with what we're teaching.

What you're teaching won't bring Him at all. In fact, He will be replaced by emotionalism, sensationalism, and charisma. Every believer has the Holy Spirit, the only "dose" of Him they ever will get being given at the very instant of belief. He isn't "acquired" by prayer, laying on of hands (no, the biblical example of this in Acts is not valid today, and that passage is grossly misunderstood in the first place), or by pleading to have "more" of Him. We can quench Him through sin and inattentiveness, and we are "filled" with Him through openness and obedience -- which is nothing more than love for God and love for others.

Our church rejects this "second baptism" you seem to be teaching. It's a lie. Doesn't exist. Our church rejects "signs and wonders" because they are all show and emotionalism with no gospel in them whatsoever. Our church rejects sensationalizing the Holy Spirit as some disembodied ethereal "power" that can be harnessed and directed by the will of a person, a group, or a church. This is the Holy Spirit you teach.

bobbarry said:
Someone came on here today and said he'd had enough, he was ready to kill himself and our replies were go and paint your aunts house, there's more you could be doing here on earth and things like that. No offence to the fella that posted that because it was good intentional.

He lives with his aunt. He feels useless because an injury keeps him from doing what he used to do. That happens, even to God's people. Telling them they "don't have the Spirit" and that's why they are suffering is a damnable lie that denies the truth of the Bible. Bad things happen to Christian people. It isn't because of sin, lack of faith, or lack of a "second baptism." It is because God will do what God will do. He is sovereign, and when things like this happen, He expects us to respond, so that He will be glorified.

bobbarry said:
My main question is this...the holy spirit that baptised Jesus, Moses, Paul andStephen is this the same holy spirit that you received??

Jesus was baptized not because He required it, but because John needed to have his ministry fulfilled as the "voice in the wilderness crying 'Prepare ye the way of the Lord.' " Moses was acted upon by the Holy Spirit, not baptized by Him. Stephen was baptized, to be sure, because he was a follower of and believer in Christ. Yes, I am baptized by the Holy Spirit, who indwelt me the moment of the birth of my faith, and regardless of what you may think, I can tell you with all truth and assurance, I felt Him indwell me.

bobbarry said:
Pick up your cross and follow me, thats talking about people before they were born again believe it or not...

Not. That's another misinterpretation of which you are guilty. No one can "take up his cross and follow Jesus" unless he/she is a believer in Jesus: His Sonship, death, burial and resurrection. Can you tell me why each of those is important to your position in Christ? Your answer will be very telling about what you understand about God the Son.

bobbarry said:
... no one is talking anything like that and thats why you've got answers like paint your aunts house to save a man from suicide.

The man is a believer. He doesn't need the gospel, except to be reminded to be thankful. He needs people who know Christ to be Christ to him. I don't believe you even understand what that means, much less are you able to "be Christ."

bobbarry said:
I hope i dont offend people with this post and thank you for replying

I'm not offended at all, and I am thankful for you. I just want you to realize you are preaching an oversimplified gospel that looks to Jesus as a magician, and the Holy Spirit as a some disembodied power that you can harness. You are wrong about both.

98cwitr · Jan 9, 2014

@OP Title: Christmas and Easter for starters

I encourage everyone to read their Bible, to be educated in Scripture, and to trust it before they trust the words of the world. I have yet to meet a single peer in my church who has read the Bible cover to cover....and that is really sad.

Bluelion · Jan 9, 2014

bobbarry said:
Jesus said Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. We then totally contradict these words with the one or two verses taking from the bible from here, there and everywhere and say how hard/difficult it will be that we actually revel in it. Explain to me what jesus was talking about here??...i ll tell you it's the holy spirit that we all claim to have inside us. But we dont have it you know why because we dont have rest for our souls or have an easy yoke or have a light burden. We can sit and analyse paul's verses lets analyse what jesus said. We cancel out what jesus said with what paul said with what we're teaching and lack of understanding.

You've said When we become aware that life will give us more than we can handle and come to grips with this, we find a promise: God is faithful to meet us in the mess and in the pain. And when He does, we learn to recognize our constant need to depend on Him. This is why Peter instructs the Church to cast our fears, worries, suffering and pain on God. He reasons we can do this because God cares for us. When life deals us more than we can handle, we can rest in the reality that God can handle it.

My question is what about the many many christians today that are all over the internet, churches that have had enough, some suicidal, god is faithful to meet us in our mess and in our pain...where and when is he meeting them? He's not and he wont with what we're teaching. Someone came on here today and said he'd had enough, he was ready to kill himself and our replies were go and paint your aunts house, there's more you could be doing here on earth and things like that. No offence to the fella that posted that because it was good intentional.

My main question is this...the holy spirit that baptised Jesus, Moses, Paul andStephen is this the same holy spirit that you received??

Pick up your cross and follow me, thats talking about people before they were born again believe it or not...because your about to be crucified on that cross here and now, and you will be glorified just the same way Jesus was. The flesh dies on that cross and then the spirit is born again the same way jesus was raised up it's spiritual...no one is talking anything like that and thats why you've got answers like paint your aunts house to save a man from suicide.

I hope i dont offend people with this post and thank you for replying

Let me address what He meant. The burden Jesus puts on us is light. We do not receive condemnation. Even though we will fall to sin we are forgiven and have the hope of Jesus that one day we will be restored to a prefect life. He does not put the full burden of the Law on us, but instead says to follow out of Love and ask for forgiveness and we will always have. All He ask is we love Him and each other, and even then He is fast to forgive when we fail. That is why the burden is light.

You have no mercy. The heart of the Lord is mercy, So how is it you say your tree is Jesus? You think you are loving your brothers and sisters but you are not but condemning them.

So I leave you with this to think about, .. and if the light you think you have is darkness how great is that darkness.

bobbarry · Jan 9, 2014

I will respond to to bottome two posts first and the third one next, thanks everybody for replying, 98 you can read the bible cover to cover for ten years without the spirit, it wont help you, the book is locked to you until you have the spirit, you'll end up with a lot of knowledge and you'll live your christian life exactly as the pharisees did. and it wont help you receive that spirit or live above sin or any of that, the important thing though is you've got a hunger for God, your exactly who he wants to save and be born again with the exact same spirit jesus received but doing what your doing wont help you.

Bluelion everything you've said here is not the truth, what you've said will make sense to yourself and probably everybody else on here, you've read the bible and you know your stuff but it's from the fleshly mind, when you receive the spirit the things you think you know have a different meaning than what it appears and you'll never understand it until you get the spirit.

You've got to ask yourself this, how do you think jesus was when he was here, the world have potrayed him totally different to how he was, jesus was powerful, the people were afraid of him, jesus had power over sin, when jesus spoke not just his discipiles were in awe of him the people were too, they stood in amazement not just at the words he spoke but there was more to it than that their was power, we have this picture of him being hated, despised all his life but it couldn't be further from the truth according to scripture anyway, where jesus went people followed him in their thousands, you know why jesus was so powerful etc, it was because he had the spirit of god...the holy spirit, the same one that baptised paul and all the others, that very same spirit can baptise you here and now, then you'll understand what the bible really says.

bobbarry · Jan 9, 2014

ThisBrotherOfHis said:
Everywhere. If you're not seeing it, you're not looking. We had a man in our church suffer a severe spinal injury in a skiing accident. We went to his bedside, prayed over him -- no, we didn't lay hands on him or shout for healing. We asked God's will to be done, and prayed that His will would be that the man would walk again. In God's timing. Nearly a year later, he's markedly improved. The rehab center sent him home because he advanced so much farther and faster than they anticipated they decided his church family and his actual family would do more for him than they could keeping him there. He is in outpatient therapy, is walking with a cane after being told he would never walk again, and needs only to restore strength in his hands to be 90%.

What about all the people that have prayed over a loved one that needed help and god didn't answer and there's been many?? was it not god's will for them to be saved?? why??Did God's mercy only go on this man because the people that prayed were good people they still sin but they try to stop it?? What decided God to step in and help on this occasion was it the praying in jesus's name?? How come that worked this time praying in jesus's name and not the countless number of times other people pray in the name of jesus?? Were they just better people than the others that prayed??

What you're teaching won't bring Him at all. In fact, He will be replaced by emotionalism, sensationalism, and charisma. Every believer has the Holy Spirit, the only "dose" of Him they ever will get being given at the very instant of belief. He isn't "acquired" by prayer, laying on of hands (no, the biblical example of this in Acts is not valid today, and that passage is grossly misunderstood in the first place), or by pleading to have "more" of Him. We can quench Him through sin and inattentiveness, and we are "filled" with Him through openness and obedience -- which is nothing more than love for God and love for others.

Lets talk about the grossly misunderstood scripture?? You say that the biblical examp,leof acts is not valid today i bet you cant give me more than one verse in the whole of the bible that deny's it, we keep taking one or two lines of scripture and trying to tie it in, and it just leads to confusion, we can take many more verses from here and there and contradict the bible and with the fleshly mind it would appear to contradict itself in places but with the spiritual mind it 100 percent wont. I m going to tell you something that might disappoint you about the emotionalism, sensationalism, charisma part, when you meet jesus your going to be in for a massive surprise, he's going to be all of them things, how do you expect him to be??

Our church rejects this "second baptism" you seem to be teaching. It's a lie. Doesn't exist. Our church rejects "signs and wonders" because they are all show and emotionalism with no gospel in them whatsoever. Our church rejects sensationalizing the Holy Spirit as some disembodied ethereal "power" that can be harnessed and directed by the will of a person, a group, or a church. This is the Holy Spirit you teach.

Jesus said if you receive me you'll go on to do greater works than he himself done...thats from the gospel, when your born again, your born by that very same spirit jesus had...the holy spirit, and if jesus had power you'll have it too, thats why your a son of god, when jesus spoke of the pharisees being the son of the devil and doing the works of the devil he was talking not just to the pharisees but also every single person that hadn't been baptised yet thats why you'll do the works of Jesus/God naturally because your a son and thats biblical my friend, if we can take one or two scriptures to discredit that, we can surely take one or two scriptures that credit it. Also your church is rejecting the works of God if what you say is true.

He lives with his aunt. He feels useless because an injury keeps him from doing what he used to do. That happens, even to God's people. Telling them they "don't have the Spirit" and that's why they are suffering is a damnable lie that denies the truth of the Bible. Bad things happen to Christian people. It isn't because of sin, lack of faith, or lack of a "second baptism." It is because God will do what God will do. He is sovereign, and when things like this happen, He expects us to respond, so that He will be glorified.

Why does it happen...even to god's people then?? "Bad things happen to God's people because god will do what god will do", god's taking a lot of responsibility nowadays thats a massive statement to make..and it's because he soverign is it...he wants to let this man who actually tried to follow jesus die because he doesn't respond to give god glory, he actually came on a christian forum to desperately ask for help, i wonder if god gets the glory if c-man gets up and get's that aunt of his's house painted. You dont know God, or who you think God is, he isn't i m sorry to tell you that.

Jesus was baptized not because He required it, but because John needed to have his ministry fulfilled as the "voice in the wilderness crying 'Prepare ye the way of the Lord.' " Moses was acted upon by the Holy Spirit, not baptized by Him. Stephen was baptized, to be sure, because he was a follower of and believer in Christ. Yes, I am baptized by the Holy Spirit, who indwelt me the moment of the birth of my faith, and regardless of what you may think, I can tell you with all truth and assurance, I felt Him indwell me.

Stephen was more than a follower and believer in christ, Stephen was a son of God, thats biblical. You can feel him indwell you all you want my friend if you speak to the holy spirit and he doesn't talk back to you, you dont have a relationship with him and your not a son of god i m sorry to tell you that too. And i dont think the sole reason jesus was baptised was for that reason you stated above either, your right about moses only being acted upon we cant be sure scriptures leads us to believe so, i dont think the spirit was available to make people born again and become sons of god until jesus died on the cross for us, i think thats the reason jesus was baptised too while on earth not because of the john the baptist thing you mentioned its not that important anyway.

Not. That's another misinterpretation of which you are guilty. No one can "take up his cross and follow Jesus" unless he/she is a believer in Jesus: His Sonship, death, burial and resurrection. Can you tell me why each of those is important to your position in Christ? Your answer will be very telling about what you understand about God the Son.
The man is a believer. He doesn't need the gospel, except to be reminded to be thankful. He needs people who know Christ to be Christ to him. I don't believe you even understand what that means, much less are you able to "be Christ."

Your reading the bible with your fleshly mind, thats why you think i m misinterpreting it. I ll tell you why it was important, jesus came to give you the holy spirit today the very same one he had and its that very spirit that will get you into heaven, its the very same one that will set you free from your sins here on earth and jesus talked about it in the bible. We're still busy taking one or two small verses from other places that actually discredit the teaching of jesus, they dont by the way, but they would appear to...we need to start taking scripture from paul etc that do stands up with what jesus said and theres many not concentrating on the one small verse that dont.

I'm not offended at all, and I am thankful for you. I just want you to realize you are preaching an oversimplified gospel that looks to Jesus as a magician, and the Holy Spirit as a some disembodied power that you can harness. You are wrong about both.

Instead of an overcomplicated one that wont get you into heaven, wont set you free from sins, wont baptise you with the exact same spirit that jesus had. Has no faith in the power of jesus and can back that up with a couple of scriptures, that you'll run out of before me. I ll back that up with scripture if needbe the same way yous all do it...it will take time, i m sure you've came across a lot of it anyway that i talk about you just keep using the same few scriptures to deny it, to defend your spiritless lives. Jesus wants to give you his spirit my friend, he loves you and he will if you let him.

bobbarry · Jan 9, 2014

Sorry answered that inside the quote boxes will have to see the answers below each of the questions apart from the last one.

Bluelion · Jan 9, 2014

bobbarry said:
I will respond to to bottome two posts first and the third one next, thanks everybody for replying, 98 you can read the bible cover to cover for ten years without the spirit, it wont help you, the book is locked to you until you have the spirit, you'll end up with a lot of knowledge and you'll live your christian life exactly as the pharisees did. and it wont help you receive that spirit or live above sin or any of that, the important thing though is you've got a hunger for God, your exactly who he wants to save and be born again with the exact same spirit jesus received but doing what your doing wont help you.

Bluelion everything you've said here is not the truth, what you've said will make sense to yourself and probably everybody else on here, you've read the bible and you know your stuff but it's from the fleshly mind, when you receive the spirit the things you think you know have a different meaning than what it appears and you'll never understand it until you get the spirit.

You've got to ask yourself this, how do you think jesus was when he was here, the world have potrayed him totally different to how he was, jesus was powerful, the people were afraid of him, jesus had power over sin, when jesus spoke not just his discipiles were in awe of him the people were too, they stood in amazement not just at the words he spoke but there was more to it than that their was power, we have this picture of him being hated, despised all his life but it couldn't be further from the truth according to scripture anyway, where jesus went people followed him in their thousands, you know why jesus was so powerful etc, it was because he had the spirit of god...the holy spirit, the same one that baptised paul and all the others, that very same spirit can baptise you here and now, then you'll understand what the bible really says.

I think why you have come to the forum and accuse everyone on here is because you are blind and sacred and are desperately trying to feel God again. What you don't see is God is trying to help you, but your running around screaming blind, attacking everything that touches your hand.

There is a prayer section on here i suggest you go there and ask for prayers.

I will pray for you, next time just ask for help, calm down and listen for God even when you can't see. Took a lot of pain for me to learn that lesson.

bobbarry · Jan 10, 2014

I think why you have come to the forum and accuse everyone on here is because you are blind and sacred and are desperately trying to feel God again. What you don't see is God is trying to help you, but your running around screaming blind, attacking everything that touches your hand.

And i think your wrong. I m here to tell people that their reward for following jesus is for here and now and it's more than you could ever imagine, but what your doing isn't and wont work.

I will pray for you

You can pray for me all you want, god wont listen to you. I m sorry to tell you that but we wants to, because he loves you.

calm down and listen for God

Obviously you've done this before and it's worked for you if your advicing it...tell us everything God's told you...let us all know.

bobbarry · Jan 10, 2014

Sorry again i ve quoted bluelion, then replied below it, quoted him again, then answered, done it again, then answered. cheers

Jake255 · Jan 10, 2014

To answer the OP, what believers are doing wrong is forgetting or being in unbelief - something along those lines - that the gospel comes in power. Some of the posts in this thread and people I speak with in 'real life' are already defeated but this behavior is not what the Bible says we are - we are conquerors! We have the overcomer living in us, it is no longer I but Christ!

We're not believing Christ is REALLY there, it is His faith, His courage, His strength, His power - we should be like a huge army going out and healing the sick, signs and wonders should be following us. The world should stand and take notice, but as it is, all we do is complain and whine and groan about how bad it is in our lives.

It's a no wonder people are leaving church buildings.

ThisBrotherOfHis · Jan 10, 2014

bobbarry said:
Jesus wants to give you his spirit my friend, he loves you and he will if you let him.

Sheer arrogance and hubris throughout the whole post, but particularly here. You dare to judge that He has not given it to me, when I know full well He has, in abundance. Go about your emotion-seeking life, Bob, and God bless you, but you will never know the peace and tranquility I have in Christ even in times of difficulty, because you will see those times in your own life -- and don't lie, we know you have them -- as needing a desperate, frantic, emotional response from you to "get more Spirit" when the reality of those events is you need to shut up, sit down and "Cease striving, and know that I am God." (Psalm 46:10)

Jake255 said:
We're not believing Christ is REALLY there, it is His faith, His courage, His strength, His power - we should be like a huge army going out and healing the sick, signs and wonders should be following us.

The same affliction I know Bob suffers also hinders you.

God bless. I'm done here. Neither of you want help or want to give help. You want to accuse the brethren for failing to adhere to a false gospel.

Jake255 · Jan 10, 2014

ThisBrotherOfHis said:
God bless. I'm done here. Neither of you want help or want to give help. You want to accuse the brethren for failing to adhere to a false gospel.

Did I not say what it was you wanted me to say? Sorry, I usually stick closely to the Bible and I don't usually fall into opinions. I stated that signs and wonders will follow believers - I got that from the Bible:

Mark 16:17 17"These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

We should see the things listed in Mark happening. We should see miracles and God at work!! Praise God!!

God bless you, too!

bobbarry · Jan 10, 2014

Jake the more and more scripture you unearth of jesus's on here the more and more some people wont like it...because it deny's what they're teaching.

We only ever get a select few of jesus's words or message, paul's few scriptures that back up the modern church life's or scripture taking from here, there and everywhere but jesus not so much...the savior unless it's to say how much we like/love him. What about his teachings, the marvelous promises he made...that he can fulfill.

Brother of his quote...Sheer arrogance and hubris throughout the whole post, but particularly here. You dare to judge that He has not given it to me, when I know full well He has, in abundance. Go about your emotion-seeking life, Bob, and God bless you, but you will never know the peace and tranquility I have in Christ even in times of difficulty, because you will see those times in your own life -- and don't lie, we know you have them -- as needing a desperate, frantic, emotional response from you to "get more Spirit" when the reality of those events is you need to shut up, sit down and "Cease striving, and know that I am God."

God is love his very being radiates love, he cant be any other way and it's not what we call love either. If God has given it to you, you better believe it's came with emotianalism as you call it, God cant and wont do it any other way. Love is an emotion afterall and God is love, i guarantee you that. He wants to do it for you here and now, dont struggle on for a reward in heaven to wait to see if you'll get a one concentrate on the here and now heaven will take care of itself. Explain to me how God done all that he done for you without much emotion??, when he does you'll know...it will be emotion you've never imagined possible.

graciesings · Jan 10, 2014

I think the place we have failed is that we haven't been relying on the Lord's strength, and doing things on that strength. Jesus came to give us salvation, AND to give us an example of how to live. I believe it is our duty to teach that part of faith to the Christian world.

bobbarry · Jan 10, 2014

Thank you for your reply graciesings

Here's my take on it gracie, i think we have been relying on the Lord's strength as we've all been taught to do, however for whatever reason/s God's not doing it for us and it's not his fault either, but we're claiming that he is because the right thing to do as christians is to give the glory to god we are convinced that god's done it and we couldn't have done it on our own strength we had to have help because it's the humble thing to do and that would be pleasing in the Lords eyes.

We're earnestly trying but we're also asking for help and if we suceed in any area of our life we give the credit to Jesus/God because we did pray as well no sensible christian would ever take the credit for it. I actually think atheists would have more success if they tried to stop sinning than us, a lot of them actually fight/querrel less than the christians do for a start after we get our how are you brother or hi how are you my dear friend or any of that out our niceties as we'll call them, it's embarrasing and us doing that above to stop it doesn't/wont work to stop it.

In our fleshy thinking it totally should but God's spiritual, i think before that above will start working for us we have to be born again first with a total and completely new spirit the same one Jesus had and that baptised paul and it's not the one we think we have, , then it will work, we're not going to work our way up closer to god thinking god will help us one bit at a time. And that was Jesus's teaching, he told them the flesh was no use, you'll die in your sins, you need to be born again completely being giving a completely new nature that you were first born with, thats the one big important thing we miss. Without that nothing we try will work...it cant and it's certainly not God's fault.

Thats where i disagree that Jesus came to give us an example on how to live...his teachings weren't that at all, at no point did he give the idea that we had to watch him and learn and then try to imitate it, he said your flesh is no good you need to be born again. He did say he that remains in me will do the works i do...i think he means he who is born again completely is in me, what i think we're doing is we dont have that spirit, we've not been born again, or we have been but we've lost the spirit i talk of at one point... and we need that same one back, we're then relying on the lord's strength but it's not and wont work until we have that spirit back so we're praying and reading and trying at the same time and then giving any sucess to jesus.

I dont think anything we read or see in the bible will work until God gives us the spirit they talk of in Acts for example, then the bible will work for us completely. Then we'll start seeing results jesus talked of, not just minor results we're calling miracles to give glory to god.

I think we need to be completely born again/again if need be. And us reading as much as we can with prayer or striving wont work, i m saying we've got to do it another way. And i think what i m talking about is much much closer to what jesus preached and talked of than what some people are doing picking scriptures from all over the place to condemn each other with for example.

Most christians i know are doing the same thing to get God to act on their behalf and it's what we think in our limited thinking will and should work. And it's not we have to be honest, we can talk of the Lord's timing all day, but Jesus isn't sitting saying if they read my bible enough as well as pray and have faith, understand everything in the bible, tithe, fast do everything really grow closerr to me with effort then i ll answer them in my timing.

graciesings · Jan 16, 2014

bobbarry said:
Thank you for your reply graciesings

Here's my take on it gracie, i think we have been relying on the Lord's strength as we've all been taught to do, however for whatever reason/s God's not doing it for us and it's not his fault either, but we're claiming that he is because the right thing to do as christians is to give the glory to god we are convinced that god's done it and we couldn't have done it on our own strength we had to have help because it's the humble thing to do and that would be pleasing in the Lords eyes.

We're earnestly trying but we're also asking for help and if we suceed in any area of our life we give the credit to Jesus/God because we did pray as well no sensible christian would ever take the credit for it. I actually think atheists would have more success if they tried to stop sinning than us, a lot of them actually fight/querrel less than the christians do for a start after we get our how are you brother or hi how are you my dear friend or any of that out our niceties as we'll call them, it's embarrasing and us doing that above to stop it doesn't/wont work to stop it.

In our fleshy thinking it totally should but God's spiritual, i think before that above will start working for us we have to be born again first with a total and completely new spirit the same one Jesus had and that baptised paul and it's not the one we think we have, , then it will work, we're not going to work our way up closer to god thinking god will help us one bit at a time. And that was Jesus's teaching, he told them the flesh was no use, you'll die in your sins, you need to be born again completely being giving a completely new nature that you were first born with, thats the one big important thing we miss. Without that nothing we try will work...it cant and it's certainly not God's fault.

Thats where i disagree that Jesus came to give us an example on how to live...his teachings weren't that at all, at no point did he give the idea that we had to watch him and learn and then try to imitate it, he said your flesh is no good you need to be born again. He did say he that remains in me will do the works i do...i think he means he who is born again completely is in me, what i think we're doing is we dont have that spirit, we've not been born again, or we have been but we've lost the spirit i talk of at one point... and we need that same one back, we're then relying on the lord's strength but it's not and wont work until we have that spirit back so we're praying and reading and trying at the same time and then giving any sucess to jesus.

I dont think anything we read or see in the bible will work until God gives us the spirit they talk of in Acts for example, then the bible will work for us completely. Then we'll start seeing results jesus talked of, not just minor results we're calling miracles to give glory to god.

I think we need to be completely born again/again if need be. And us reading as much as we can with prayer or striving wont work, i m saying we've got to do it another way. And i think what i m talking about is much much closer to what jesus preached and talked of than what some people are doing picking scriptures from all over the place to condemn each other with for example.

Most christians i know are doing the same thing to get God to act on their behalf and it's what we think in our limited thinking will and should work. And it's not we have to be honest, we can talk of the Lord's timing all day, but Jesus isn't sitting saying if they read my bible enough as well as pray and have faith, understand everything in the bible, tithe, fast do everything really grow closerr to me with effort then i ll answer them in my timing.

I know what you mean, that some people seem to want to leave things to God's strength and let Him take care of all evangelism. I guess what I may not have explained well in my post is that we need to obey Him. I know about 3 Christian women who really listen to God and would do something unusual because they were praying and He told them to. (There are men this way, but I try not to judge the faith of the men around me because they are less of an example for my life.) Anyway, that kind of faith is my goal. Over the last few months I have finally reached the point where I'm there. God does speak to me (but only when I listen closely, and make an effort to use what He tells me.) I recently have been given a direction from Him that is a large surprise to me and may alienate me from all my friends. Nevertheless, this is the will of God. Nothing else matters.

I think we need more Christians who are willing to listen to the directive of God and let God take over their lives. It would be very easy for me to ignore the direction I've recently been given. I am not going to stay where I want, because I think God is sending me to this unfamiliar place for a reason. He has a task for me.

It is God working, and not me. But I am going through the trouble of complying and I think that's something many people don't do.

Keep in mind, though, that God WILL not give us the ability to do completely good things without His help. To do His work, we need His direction and assistance.

God bless you,
Grace

bobbarry · Jan 17, 2014

Hey Gracie-sings, i like talking to you . Good post and thank you very much for reply.

Here's my take on it...the whole point of my post was to ask what christians are doing wrong. The reason i asked it was because over the years and through my own experience, i ve noticed that many many people are struggling in their christian walk, i think thats fair to say. And when they come looking for answers from church/pastors/forums or wherever, the answer always seems to lie at the struggling christians door which i dont neccesarly agree with, it's just that what we've been taught to do isn't and wont work. It's either they're not relying on jesus enough or they should be reading the word or praying more, even though sometimes they're already doing a lot. Or they cant get victory over sin and that becomes their fault too, even though they've tried with all they're strength, tried praying to jesus to help them/take the sin from them etc etc and still no hope.

If you go into most churches it's clear to see they're not living the life jesus had hoped, their doing all that we know to do but for whatever reason, it's not working, they're not bearing the good fruit required as much as they try, outwardly yes maybe, inwardly...not for me anyway.

My question was to highlight maybe we're doing something wrong as christians to get God to act on our behalf. How do we rely on the lord for example, no ones preaching that, everyones telling you to do it, no ones telling people how to do it though. I think most of us are trying in our own strength and thats why it's not working. As much as we ask jesus to help, i dont think he is. And i think he wants to completely. But what we're doing isn't and wont work.

I ve only been on here maybe a week and i ve seen a lot of people saying, you've got to love your neighbour and love God above all. And if you fail you ask for forgiveness and try your best. Thats all scriptural, but here is where i think we're failing... in my experience God via the holy spirit poured love into my heart, i went about life loving people even if i tried not to(not that i did), i couldn't not love them. Much like as much as i try to love people without that same holy spirit, i couldn't. I could act/appear nicer to people what we're seeing on forums etc, i could be a little more patient with people, i could tell them i love them but it's not the genuine love that the holy spirit poured out. I think thats what we're missing, thats why it's not working for many many people. Much the same with sin, if we're struggling in our sins which many of us are...it's time to ask questions. Jesus said he who sins is a slave to sin...and he went on to say later he came to set people free from there sins. Many of us are still a slave to sin regardless how small they are and we think if we try hard enough even with asking jesus for help we'll be free or he's slowly cleaning us up and yet it rarely works and we know it, as the years go by we just learn to manage our sins better and use parts of scripture outwith what jesus said that appear to back up our lives, that to me seems like what jesus said wasn't really the truth. My question to people is can jesus set you free from all sin or cant he?? Whats stopping him if you agree he can, why aren't you completely free?? Surely that would be the will of God, thats one of the reasons he came for.

Personally i think he can, completely. He can completely give you the nature of the spirit listed in the bible and replace the nature of the flesh, as much as we try to control that flesh it still lusts after these things we think we're being good christians when we fight against it, it would make jesus happy, but to me that wasn't his message at all...the flesh is no use at all. We're trying to follow jesus when we're still in the flesh, it will never work, we need to be completely born again. A one time conversion. He will make you born again with a new spirit that will conquer all sin/the world etc.

I think we need to find out how to get that spirit, we're claiming that we have it but we're not bringin forth the fruits of that spirit, why??, its not about condemning anybody it's about pushing people on myself included to receive it. I think what we need to do is ask ourselfs are we struggling in sin however small?? and if we are, is that lining up with what jesus said?? Personally i dont think it does. Then we've got to ask ourselves how do we receive that spirit so that we can have total/complete victory in our christian lives.

Apologies for length of the post, think i apologised earlier for the longest post ever a couple of posts ago, i now take that one back and apologies for this one...cause it's pretty massive .

I enjoyed reading your post graicie, i think if you receive that spirit i talk of God will directly reveal himself to you and you wont have to listen that hard for his instructions, he'll make it loud and clear.

Apologies also if the post offends anybody, it definetely isn't what i m intending to do at all, hopefully no one needs to report it for whatever reason, we're adults here and we're all better than that anyway .

God bless you Grace (i m stealing that from you too)

Alias1234 · Jan 23, 2014

Jesus spoke of sin and deny your self.
Sin means to miss the mark.
You know god when god is not veiled by your idea of your self.
Stay firm in faith means to stay as you are, it is true denying and not a denying of what you as your idea of your self wants to deny.
It can be painful, it is the cross Jesus spoke of, deny your self, pick up your cross and follow me.
Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
You can go in and out of the kingdom of god and still be missing the mark, it is the idea of your self that comes and goes.

graciesings · Jan 23, 2014

Hi, Bob

bobbarry said:
Here's my take on it...the whole point of my post was to ask what christians are doing wrong. The reason i asked it was because over the years and through my own experience, i ve noticed that many many people are struggling in their christian walk, i think thats fair to say. And when they come looking for answers from church/pastors/forums or wherever, the answer always seems to lie at the struggling christians door which i dont neccesarly agree with, it's just that what we've been taught to do isn't and wont work. It's either they're not relying on jesus enough or they should be reading the word or praying more, even though sometimes they're already doing a lot. Or they cant get victory over sin and that becomes their fault too, even though they've tried with all they're strength, tried praying to jesus to help them/take the sin from them etc etc and still no hope.

I think I missed something originally and assumed you meant "Christians" in the context of "the group of Christ's followers." Reading this, it looks more like you're talking about individuals and asking what the individual can do. I want to recommend a few books that have been helpful to me in my walk with God. I really like "Let Me Die In Ireland: The Life of St. Patrick." (Don't remember the author's name, think it's David Bercot.) "The Practice of the Presence of God" is another book I like. (You can listen to it online at https://librivox.org/the-practice-of-the-presence-of-god-by-brother-lawrence-2/.
I'm afraid I'm going to quote these to death in my later explanation, because they are the two books I think of when I think about St. Patrick. I would encourage you to read them, somehow. In case you're curious about the authors' worldviews, one was written by a Catholic and one by an Anabaptist. They're both amazing Christians

bobbarry said:
My question was to highlight maybe we're doing something wrong as christians to get God to act on our behalf. How do we rely on the lord for example, no ones preaching that, everyones telling you to do it, no ones telling people how to do it though. I think most of us are trying in our own strength and thats why it's not working. As much as we ask jesus to help, i dont think he is. And i think he wants to completely. But what we're doing isn't and wont work.

I ve only been on here maybe a week and i ve seen a lot of people saying, you've got to love your neighbour and love God above all. And if you fail you ask for forgiveness and try your best. Thats all scriptural, but here is where i think we're failing... in my experience God via the holy spirit poured love into my heart, i went about life loving people even if i tried not to(not that i did), i couldn't not love them. Much like as much as i try to love people without that same holy spirit, i couldn't. I could act/appear nicer to people what we're seeing on forums etc, i could be a little more patient with people, i could tell them i love them but it's not the genuine love that the holy spirit poured out. I think thats what we're missing, thats why it's not working for many many people. Much the same with sin, if we're struggling in our sins which many of us are...it's time to ask questions. Jesus said he who sins is a slave to sin...and he went on to say later he came to set people free from there sins. Many of us are still a slave to sin regardless how small they are and we think if we try hard enough even with asking jesus for help we'll be free or he's slowly cleaning us up and yet it rarely works and we know it, as the years go by we just learn to manage our sins better and use parts of scripture outwith what jesus said that appear to back up our lives, that to me seems like what jesus said wasn't really the truth.

I think having the Holy Spirit (or as Brother Lawrence might say, the presence of God) is a huge factor in how fruitful a Christian is. As for how to get it, that isn't as easy to explain. Obviously, it starts with believing in God. I think we should pray for His guidance, His Spirit. I don't mean just praying once, I mean praying without ceasing. (Let Me Die In Ireland tells the story of how St. Patrick spent 5 years praying for freedom, then another 20-ish years praying that God would allow him to fulfill the task God had given him!.) The Practice of the Presence of God talks about Brother Lawrence praying even in dry periods, when he didn't feel that God was there. I think a big step that people need to make is to pray for the Spirit, and pray for opportunities to serve God. I too have had times when I'm filled with the Holy Spirit and times when God doesn't seem to be anywhere. I would encourage somebody in a dry spot to pray that God will give them life.

bobbarry said:
My question to people is can jesus set you free from all sin or cant he?? Whats stopping him if you agree he can, why aren't you completely free?? Surely that would be the will of God, thats one of the reasons he came for.

God definitely can set us free from sin. The reason He doesn't is that we don't want that to happen! I understand your point about people being attacked with the idea that they aren't good enough Christians. However, I think we all have times when we want to hang on to the sin we enjoy. This separates us from God, as He doesn't set us free from the sins we hang on to. When we repent, pray, are penitential, etc. God forgives our sin. The rest of the time? We get stuck in a rut, separated from God.

bobbarry said:
Personally i think he can, completely. He can completely give you the nature of the spirit listed in the bible and replace the nature of the flesh, as much as we try to control that flesh it still lusts after these things we think we're being good christians when we fight against it, it would make jesus happy, but to me that wasn't his message at all...the flesh is no use at all. We're trying to follow jesus when we're still in the flesh, it will never work, we need to be completely born again. A one time conversion. He will make you born again with a new spirit that will conquer all sin/the world etc.

I know a lot of Christians who say that you're born again once, and saved once, and then life's beautiful. I don't agree. I know that I am born again, and again and again and again and again. I have sinned since I became a Christian, and there are times when I have been out of grace. But God received me back, and keeps taking me back. I feel like both salvation and rebirth (sanctification) are processes that continue throughout our entire lives. And, I've wondered if this view could have caused a problem with many Christians. I think many of them reach a point where they've been born again and had the new spirit, now that's done, now they either ignore religion or THEY ARE THE AWESOME CHRISTIANS WHO CAN TELL THE WORLD WHAT TO DO!

This leads me to an interesting and unusual sense of mission. I am not focused on making sure everyone in Africa is baptized, or everyone in South America has a dramatic conversion experience. I am focused on strengthening the faith of the people around me. Most of them are in the category that many Christians would consider "saved." I don't question that, it's a messy theology spot. I do believe that they need to be more than just somewhat Christian. I focus hard on teaching people how to live as Christians, and how to Practice the Presence of God.

For me, faith is a lifestyle. It is confessing sins. It is calling God to help me. It is asking Him what I should do. It is begging Him to give me the Holy Spirit and renew me, even though that just happened yesterday.
It is also asking God to use my hands to do His work.

I

bobbarry said:
think we need to find out how to get that spirit, we're claiming that we have it but we're not bringin forth the fruits of that spirit, why??, its not about condemning anybody it's about pushing people on myself included to receive it. I think what we need to do is ask ourselfs are we struggling in sin however small?? and if we are, is that lining up with what jesus said?? Personally i dont think it does. Then we've got to ask ourselves how do we receive that spirit so that we can have total/complete victory in our christian lives.

I've always been a little unsure about charismatic churches. They claim that they are filled with the spirit, so spirit filled that they can't stay still or sit down or be quiet... but then, their fruits aren't any sweeter than many other churches!

As I said, the best way for us to receive that spirit is to beg God to give it to us. I think we should ask Him for faith, strength, life, forgiveness, salvation, etc. My teacher/mentor raised an interesting point the other day. She read an excerpt from a book by Mark Hall that talked about how many Christians don't have their faith on a daily basis. Instead, they give God 2 hours a week on Sunday mornings. He said that they are so bogged down in confessing, and feeling guilty that they haven't spent time with God; that they don't get to spend quality time with Him. Hall suggested that the Christians who don't try to live with God on a daily basis wind up spending so little time with God that they don't have time to hear the voice of God, get His guidance for their lives, and experience His grace.

I hope this post (even though I wrote it in a hurry and am probably not very clear in some places) helps. If something I wrote isn't clear, please tell me and I will try to explain.

God bless you,
Grace

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