What are they afraid of?

SpiritPsalmist · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by SnuP
You might be able to understand it to a degree, but you need the Spirit revealing the word, in order for it to be life in you.  The word of God with out the Spirit revealing it, is death.  It become works.  No Spirit, no life.  Understanding without the Spirit, is only death.  That kind of understanding is worthless.

. . .and also causes one to lean upon their own understanding, instead of His, which of course is not the same as ours.

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"you need the Spirit revealing the word"

for it to lead you to salvation, I agree, but people can understand things that the text plainly says, you don't need the spirit for that.

I would disagree, I think most of the Jews I have spoken to can understand the teachings in the OT very well.

shout2thelord · Dec 4, 2002

I didnt understand the old testament until i read the new testament then suddenly things that were explained made sense.
I would say the Holy spirit helps us to do more than understand the word it make it come alive to us!

SnuP · Dec 4, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"you need the Spirit revealing the word"

for it to lead you to salvation, I agree, but people can understand things that the text plainly says, you don't need the spirit for that.

I would disagree, I think most of the Jews I have spoken to can understand the teachings in the OT very well.

Your right, the jews plainly understood that the massiah would come and save them from Rome and establist a earthly kingdom that would never end and bring pease to earth distroying the existing government and firmly establish the existing priesthood as a governmental body.  If they were so wright about the massiah without the Holy Spirit revealing it then I guess none of us need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth.  Isn't mans wisdom great.

       

 

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"Your right, the jews plainly understood that the massiah would come and save them from Rome and establist a earthly kingdom that would never end and bring pease to earth distroying the existing government and firmly establish the existing priesthood as a governmental body. If they were so wright about the massiah without the Holy Spirit revealing it then I guess none of us need the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth. "

Yeah! Lets put more words in my mouth! woo hoo! So you don't think the jews understand that you MUST follow the law to be saved? Do you think Paul didn't understand ANYTHING until AFTER he talked to Christ? I very much disagree with that. Paul understood it very well, the problem we he didn't see the fufillment of it, not that he didn't understand it. Jews are saved too you know. Why? BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THE OT AND THE SINAI COVENANT.

SnuP · Dec 4, 2002

"Yeah! Lets put more words in my mouth! woo hoo! So you don't think the jews understand that you MUST follow the law to be saved? Do you think Paul didn't understand ANYTHING until AFTER he talked to Christ? I very much disagree with that. Paul understood it very well, the problem we he didn't see the fufillment of it, not that he didn't understand it. Jews are saved too you know. Why? BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND THE OT AND THE SINAI COVENANT."

You've got to be kidding.

Romans 2:
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Remember. . . no man comes to the father but by Jesus? Not the law. Only perfect obedience to the law can save a man. The only Jew that ever was able to completely obey the law was Jesus. Paul didn't understand any of this until well after his encounter with Jesus.

I can't even believe that I'm responding to this. LOL

If Jews are saved already then why do they need Jesus?

Outspoken · Dec 4, 2002

"Remember. . . no man comes to the father but by Jesus? Not the law."

LOL, exactly! They know that you must uphold the law perfectly the problem is they think they can do it. That's an error in judement NOT interpreation. Please just think about it before repsonding next time bro. You're missing some steps here.

"no man comes to the father but by Jesus? "
Except if you're a true jew

"I can't even believe that I'm responding to this. LOL"

Me either! You're starting to look a little foolish when you're not thinking it through first.

shout2thelord · Dec 5, 2002

Jesus came to save everyone not just gentiles. They denied the son of God and still do so how can they be saved. I wasnt aware that the scripture said no man comes to the father except through me unless your a Jew.

Jews still need Jesus!

The Bible says we need to know Jesus
Matt 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

Then how can a jew be saved if they dont know Jesus?

Andrew · Dec 5, 2002

Then how can a jew be saved if they dont know Jesus?

Jew or Gentile, there is no other name under heaven given among men (that includes Jews) by which we must be saved, except the name of Jesus.

God's love affair with the Jews is not yet over. When they finally recognise and ackowledge Him at the second coming, the Jews will be saved -- an entire nation saved in a day!

SnuP · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Remember. . . no man comes to the father but by Jesus? Not the law."

LOL, exactly! They know that you must uphold the law perfectly the problem is they think they can do it. That's an error in judement NOT interpreation. Please just think about it before repsonding next time bro. You're missing some steps here.

"no man comes to the father but by Jesus? "
Except if you're a true jew

"I can't even believe that I'm responding to this. LOL"

Me either! You're starting to look a little foolish when you're not thinking it through first.

Do you believe that there are some Jews who have salvation outside of Christ?  That they will go to heaven without excepting Jesus?

SpiritPsalmist · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by SnuP
Do you believe that there are some Jews who have salvation outside of Christ?  That they will go to heaven without excepting Jesus?

SnuP,

I think(?) that to be a "true" Jew would mean that they've kept the law to perfection since the time of birth and/or accountability.  But since the Bible says that "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God", we know that is impossible.

unitedistand · Dec 5, 2002

A righteous man needs no savior, but I have not once met a truely righteous man in my life who wasn't made righteous unless through the blood of Yashua, who accepted him as their savior. No amount of keeping laws will get you into heaven. That's about as Ludacris as the view that just being a good person gets you into heaven.

John 3:16 clearly says that salvation comes through Yashua alone. No amount of keeping the Mosaic covenant will get you into heaven, because that one has passed, it was nailed to the cross, especially since the people who he was sent to DENIED HIM.

Yashua said that he wasn't sent but to the lost sheep of Isreal. When they denied him, salvation extended to the Jews two weeks after his ascention into heaven.

Extirpated Wildlife · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by wblastyn
Why is it some Christians find dancing, clapping, raising hands, shouting praises to God, etc offensive or "of the devil"?

It annoys me when people get all "holier than thou" when someone raises their hands, shouts, etc, to praise God.

Our church does clapping and raising hands.

And yes, I am not that comfortable with the dancers. Dancing in our culture for a long time has had a sexual undertone to it. Whether you agree it or not, that is a true statement and really isnt that arguable.

So how do you define Dancing? Are you grinding in the aisles? or what?

But To be honest, Alot of this is cultural. To me, culturally, i am very uncomfortable with cabbage patch in church.

And shouting is cultural too for the most part. For me personally, I get alot more out of a service when there are no distractions and i can focus on what the pastor is saying.

Outspoken · Dec 5, 2002

"Do you believe that there are some Jews who have salvation outside of Christ? That they will go to heaven without excepting Jesus?"

Read romans, its very enlightening SnuP. I guess you missed that part?

Blindfaith · Dec 5, 2002

After watching the process of this post, I'm going to add my thoughts, but am not going to debate.

First off, I've said this time and time again, when the Lord Jesus looks down from Heaven, what does He see?  Not separate denominations, or specific denominations.  He sees the Body of Christ.

I could care less if someone is Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant, Methodist, Non-denom or whatever.  If we all worship the same Lord, that being the Lord Jesus Christ, the Risen Lord, the Messiah and Savior of all......who cares?

Whatever works for each person.

Our family goes to a non-denominational church, and there are some who stand up and raise their hands, some that clap, and some that don't. 

It's not up to me to determine if they are having a "true" worship or not ~ it's up to the Lord.  Whatever denomination, or non-denomination, their worship and learning is led by the Spirit and not by man. 

There is no specific definition regarding a non-denomination church, because they're all  varied, and not one is better than the next.  It's not the church building, or the pastor, or the worship service that defines the heart of the believer, but the Lord Jesus Himself.  THAT is what will define the Glory, Honor and success of each individual in whatever church they may be in.

SnuP · Dec 5, 2002

Originally posted by Outspoken
"Do you believe that there are some Jews who have salvation outside of Christ? That they will go to heaven without excepting Jesus?"

Read romans, its very enlightening SnuP. I guess you missed that part?

I'll take that as a yes.  Unless you care to post a different concept. 

Do you believe that we, as gentiles grafted into the vine, must follow the law as a part of our salvation?  Or as a requirement for our salvation?

Outspoken · Dec 5, 2002

"Do you believe that we, as gentiles grafted into the vine, must follow the law as a part of our salvation? Or as a requirement for our salvation?"

SnuP just read romans Paul covers this exact topic in chapters 9 to about 11.

SnuP · Dec 6, 2002

I'm asking for your position, not my take on Romans. I know what my take on Romans is. I've read ch. 8-14 so many times that it makes my head spin.

I want to know what your take is. Why won't you answer the question? What are you afraid of?

What you are doing is called miss direction. Why won't you just give you opinion?

Outspoken · Dec 6, 2002

"What are you afraid of?"

Nothing, but why should I answer a question that already has been answered, and probably better then I could answer it.

SnuP · Dec 6, 2002

I'm asking you, you're theology. What you believe, not what someone else believes. Its a simple question, why won't you answer it?

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