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The current battlecry of creationist/ID institutes like AiG, the Discovery Institute, and ICR is that science classes should discuss the weaknesses of the theory of evolution. So what are those weaknesses?
Especially the 68 million year old ones that still contain red blood cells.yes it is, Most animals are taken by scavengers when they die. Fossilization is a very rare phenomena.
Especially the 68 million year old ones that still contain red blood cells.
If you are warming up for the Gish Gallop, I would strongly suggest that you check out this list of common creationist claims before proceeding. The quote above from talkorigins is from that list. It is long list so use the "Find" function under the Edit option in your web browser to sort through it.Claim CC371:
Schweitzer et al. (1997a) found evidence of hemoglobin and red blood cells in an unfossilized Tyrannosaurus rex bone. This indicates that the dinosaur died rather recently, not millions of years ago, which in turn indicates that the earth is young.
Source:
Wieland, Carl, 1997 (Sep.-Nov.). Sensational dinosaur blood report. Creation 19(4): 42-43. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4232cen_s1997.asp
Ham, K., J. Sarfati and C. Wieland, 2000. The Revised and Expanded Answers Book. Green Forest AR: Master Books, pp. 246-247.
Response:
Links:
- Schweitzer et al. did not find hemoglobin or red blood cells. Rather, they found evidence of degraded hemoglobin fragments and structures that might represent altered blood remnants. They emphasizd repeatedly that even those results were tentative, that the chemicals and structures may be from geological processes and contamination (Schweitzer and Horner 1999; Schweitzer and Staedter 1997; Schweitzer et al. 1997a, 1997b). The bone is exceptionally well preserved, so much so that it may contain some organic material from the original dinosaur, but the preservation should not be exaggerated.
- The bone that Schweitzer and her colleagues studied was fossilized, but it was not altered by "permineralization or other diagenetic effects" (Schweitzer et al. 1997b). Permineralization is the filling of the bone's open parts with minerals; diagenetic effects include alterations like cracking. Schweitzer commented that the bone was "not completely fossilized" (Schweitzer and Staedter 1997, 35), but lack of permineralization does not mean unfossilized.
- An ancient age of the bone is supported by the (nonradiometric) amino racemization dating technique.
- Soft tissues have been found on fossils tens of thousands of years old, and DNA has been recovered from samples more than 300,000 years old (Stokstad 2003; Willerslev et al. 2003). If dinosaur fossils were as young as creationists claim, recovering DNA and non-bone tissues from them should be routine enough that it would not be news.
Hurd, Gary S., 2004. Dino-blood and the young earth. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dinosaur/blood.html or http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/YEC_and_dino_blood.htm
References:
- Schweitzer, Mary H., Mark Marshall, Keith Carron, D. Scott Bohle, Scott C. Busse, Ernst V. Arnold, Darlene Barnard, J. R. Horner, and Jean R. Starkey, 1997a. Heme compounds in dinosaur trabecular bone. Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA 94: 6291-6296. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/94/12/6291
- Schweitzer, M. H., C. Johnson, T. G. Zocco, J. H. Horner and J. R. Starkey, 1997b. Preservation of biomolecules in cancellous bone of Tyrannosaurus rex. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 17(2): 349-359.
- Schweitzer, M. and T. Staedter, 1997. The real Jurassic Park. Earth, June, pp. 55-57.
- Schweitzer, Mary Higby and John R. Horner, 1999. Intrasvascular microstructures in trabecular bone tissues of Tyrannosaurus rex. Annales de Paléontologie 85(3): 179-192.
- Stokstad, Erik. 2003. Ancient DNA pulled from soil. Science 300: 407.
- Willerslev, E. et al. 2003. Diverse plant and animal genetic records from Holocene and Pleistocene sediments. Science 300: 791-795.
That specimen is actually quite an amazing find. The protein sequencing showed that the T-rex's closest living relatives are birds. This is perhaps the greatest paleontological discovery of the last hundred years. Finally paleontologists have a way to biologically test hypotheses about relationships that were derived from the skeletons. With preservation three or four orders of magnitude older than was thought possible, who knows how long such soft tissue can last if preserved correctly.Especially the 68 million year old ones that still contain red blood cells.
Where are the millions of years of decaying species evolution to support your thery? Why is it that we can't find all the links? Did they disolve? We have the dinasoaurs, but wher are the real remains of the millions of years of decaying evolutionary matter to support this theory of evolution aside from your natural selections.Natural selection, mutation giving rise to traits not previously found in the population(new information), and speciation have all been observed both in the lab and in nature. The kinds of changes you are probably thinking about (eyes and wings or ape to man) span the lifetimes of several entire species and take millions of years to occur.
The frog is the only God made evolution we can witness to extreeme degrees.That specimen is actually quite an amazing find. The protein sequencing showed that the T-rex's closest living relatives are birds. This is perhaps the greatest paleontological discovery of the last hundred years. Finally paleontologists have a way to biologically test hypotheses about relationships that were derived from the skeletons. With preservation three or four orders of magnitude older than was thought possible, who knows how long such soft tissue can last if preserved correctly.
I beleive there was a magnificent destruction and Gods Word Speaks repeatedly about it. Somewhere was about 12,000 years ago. One day we will begin to understand the truth in Gods Word.Especially the creationist dishonesty that you are (unintentionally?) spreading. Red blood cells were not found. From talkorigins
[/list]If you are warming up for the Gish Gallop, I would strongly suggest that you check out this list of common creationist claims before proceeding. The quote above from talkorigins is from that list. It is long list so use the "Find" function under the Edit option in your web browser to sort through it.
So I guess the only weakness that evolution has is that some christians prefer creationist dishonesty over actual evidence.
Poor ole Kramer.1. Fails to provide tingling sensation when I shampoo, so I can't tell if it's really working.
2. It's not low-fat, low-carb.
3. Can't plug it into my iPod.
4. No good disco songs about it.
5. Four out of 5 wackjobs reject it.
Missing links also known as transitional fossils:Where are the millions of years of decaying species evolution to support your thery? Why is it that we can't find all the links? Did they disolve? We have the dinasoaurs, but wher are the real remains of the millions of years of decaying evolutionary matter to support this theory of evolution aside from your natural selections.
Where are the millions of years of decaying species evolution to support your thery?
Why is it that we can't find all the links?
That is not evolution. evolution does not occur over the lifetime of an individual, this idea was defeated over a century ago. What a frog has is a life cycle, it isnt evolving. individuals dont evolve, populations do. populations that become isolated accumulate change and eventually this change renders the populations unable to breed. This is called speciation and it has been observed.The frog is the only God made evolution we can witness to extreeme degrees.
I beleive there was a magnificent destruction and Gods Word Speaks repeatedly about it. Somewhere was about 12,000 years ago. One day we will begin to understand the truth in Gods Word.
This is absurd!If dinosaur fossils were as young as creationists claim, recovering DNA and non-bone tissues from them should be routine enough that it would not be news.
who knows how long such soft tissue can last if preserved correctly.
you should really check your facts
Then when a creationist says; "Well, if the planet is as old as some claim, there should be more than ample fossil evidence of speciation, so ,....Where is it???If dinosaur fossils were as young as creationists claim, recovering DNA and non-bone tissues from them should be routine enough that it would not be news.
The sea floor is inhabited by many scavingers, even the bones are consumed.
Fossilization is a very rare phenomena.
This is absurd!
When a creationist says; How could red blood cells have survived for 68 million years?
An evolutionist spouts...
or...
In other words, "We will MAKE the pieces fit the puzzle, Ye need not question the wisdom of "our faith."
Then when a creationist says; "Well, if the planet is as old as some claim, there should be more than ample fossil evidence of speciation, so ,....Where is it???
This is absurd!
When a creationist says; How could red blood cells have survived for 68 million years?
An evolutionist spouts...
Then when a creationist says; "Well, if the planet is as old as some claim, there should be more than ample fossil evidence of speciation, so ,....Where is it???
And we get...
CACTUS said:Missing links also known as transitional fossils:
Tiktaalik rosea(fish-amphibian)
Arechaeopteryx(dinosaur-bird)
Probainognathus(reptile-mammal)
Then there are the transitional series which have several species in them:
horse(hyracotherium, mesohippus, merychippus)
whale(pakicetus, ambulocetus, basilosaurus)
human(australopithicus afarensis, homo habilis, homo erectus)
There are lots of transitional fossils it's just that creationists dont concede them as being transitional which leads to glaring problems. Archaeopteryx had a wishbone and modern bird feathers, it also had teethladen jaws and a hyperextended second toe which is only known to exist in the group that would later give rise to velociraptor. This animal was very clearly a bird, yet very clearly a dinosaur. Transitional fossils dont get much better than that.
BWAAA HAAA HAAA HAAA!!!
you'd know that there are loads of transitional fossils (as quoted above) you'd know all sorts of things.
And you wouldn't be pestering us with PRATTs.
Sorry, Actually I do know "All sorts of things."
But it wasn't my intention to upset anyone.
Anytime one theology encounters another in a debate, there will be differing opinions.
I was just attempting to offer evidence to support my faith along side of the evidence you have provided to support your own.
This is not a theological discussion, this is a scientific one. Evolution is a scientific theory and as such it lives and dies by the evidence, which there is mountains of. Evolution has no implications as to the existance or otherwise of God, i say that as both a scientist and a theist. Evolution does refute biblical genesis. But biblical genesis is scientifically laughable. days, light, and plant-bearing earth all before the sun is a joke.Sorry, Actually I do know "All sorts of things."
But it wasn't my intention to upset anyone.
Anytime one theology encounters another in a debate, there will be differing opinions.
I was just attempting to offer evidence to support my faith along side of the evidence you have provided to support your own.
Yeah, science isn't a theology, and conflating the two shows just how ignorant you are of both.
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