What are the 5 brothers in parable of Rich man/lazarus

In Christ Forever · Nov 29, 2004

Would it be ok to start a discussion on the Rich man and Lazarus? I would like to see others views on it. The rich man dies and is buried, but Lazarus dies and is taken by angels to Abraham's bosom. What is representing :

1 the "5 brothers" the rich man wants to send,

2what is representing the Rich man

3 what is representing Lazarus

4 what is representing the gulf between them

5 the fire/hades
19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

Questioning Christian · Nov 29, 2004

My pastor made a good point to me. Parables are hypothetical. If real names are mentioned, then it really happened. I felt that what he said was in line with Scripture. I don't think it is parabolic if you use names.

Asaph · Nov 29, 2004

In Christ Forever said:
Would it be ok to start a discussion on the Rich man and Lazarus? I would like to see others views on it. The rich man dies and is buried, but Lazarus dies and is taken by angels to Abraham's bosom. What is representing :

1 the "5 brothers" the rich man wants to send,

2what is representing the Rich man

3 what is representing Lazarus

4 what is representing the gulf between them

5 the fire/hades
19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 "Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

When He said "a certain rich man". He really meant a particular person. This is not an allegory, nor is it meant to be symbolic. It is presented as a factual case study.

Gosh, nothing more can be made of it unless that is first understood.

Asaph

In Christ Forever · Nov 29, 2004

Asaph said:
When He said "a certain rich man". He really meant a particular person. This is not an allegory, nor is it meant to be symbolic. It is presented as a factual case study.

Gosh, nothing more can be made of it unless that is first understood.

Asaph

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Click to expand...

HMM. What do the 5 brothers represent for example? Anything to do with "Judah"?

Notice the colors the rich man is wearing.

19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.

Click to expand...

Andrew · Nov 29, 2004

This is an interesting passage.

While I believe it is literal -- ie it did happen, there are also spiritual truths to it.

Did the rich man go to hell becos he was rich? No.
Did the poor beggar go to paradise becos he was poor? No.

These are my personal insights:
Abraham represents faith -- he was justified by faith, not the law. I believe the beggar then, being 'saved' in Abraham's bosom was also justified by faith, NOT by hearing Moses and the Prophets, becos Moses represents the Law and no man can be justified by the Law. (Rem on the Mount of Transfiguration, God told them to HEAR HIM (Jesus/Gospel) not hear Moses (the Law) and Elijah (the prophets) or even all three)

The five brothers. 5 is the number of grace in the Bible. Grace and Law cannot mix. Hence, the five brothers left will not/cannot repent and be saved by hearing Moses and the Prophets (the Law). That's why the rich man said "No". Neither can then hear and repent via miracles -- dead man rising from the dead. They must also be saved by faith.

In short, what is the spiritual lesson here?

One can only be saved by grace thru faith.

Svt4Him · Nov 29, 2004

It is not a parable. That is a real man, burning in hell.

In Christ Forever · Nov 29, 2004

Svt4Him said:
It is not a parable. That is a real man, burning in hell.

LOL. It is a prophecy against the corrupt priests/rulers of the house of Judah, the jews of today with the gulf of the CROSS keeping them from Christ.. Notice the colors of the rich man[colors of the jewish priests/tabernacle]. According to jeremiah, they are "landless" forever without the CROSS. God bless.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah .
He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. The Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Jesus wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Click to expand...

19 " There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders.3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Asaph · Nov 29, 2004

Personally, I've never seen such a diminishment of a clear meaning of scripture as this.

I have to wonder what abberated doctrines are resultant, and I can assure you they are forthcoming.

Asaph

Trish1947 · Nov 29, 2004

Is it supposed to be hard..Gee, I hate it when God plays tiddely winks with my brain.
I thought it meant, Lazarus represented a man the loved God, but got a rotten deal from the world all the time, Jesus came, and now he is comforted.

Those that didn't need God, but had a sumptuous life style, rich, and thought they had all that was needed in life, went to hell.

When he found out there really was a hell, he was begging for the opportunity to tell his brothers, avoid this place at all cost. But they wouldn't believe it even if they were told someone had paid the price..

Am I missing it here?

Asaph · Nov 29, 2004

Trish1947 said:
Is it supposed to be hard..Gee, I hate it when God plays tiddely winks with my brain.
I thought it meant, Lazarus represented a man the loved God, but got a rotten deal from the world all the time, Jesus came, and now he is comforted.

Those that didn't need God, but had a sumptuous life style, rich, and thought they had all that was needed in life, went to hell.

When he found out there really was a hell, he was begging for the opportunity to tell his brothers, avoid this place at all cost. But they wouldn't believe it even if they were told someone had paid the price..

Am I missing it here?

Nope. Not a thing. Unless you have failed to grasp the clear hermenutical understanding that this is not a made up story. It is presented as fact in the context of the narrative and as far as the best linguistic scholars can conclude. This story is not a parable. It differs in significant and concrete ways from other stories that are parables.

(This is important)

Asaph

NewSong · Nov 29, 2004

I did edit this because I have no clue!

???????????????????????????

NewSong · Nov 29, 2004

Oh and P.S. I forgot to mention that it can't be the bosom of Abraham because Abraham is dead and is waiting to be resurrected and that is in Hebrews.

Oops!

Trish1947 · Nov 29, 2004

Asaph said:
Nope. Not a thing. Unless you have failed to grasp the clear hermenutical understanding that this is not a made up story. It is presented as fact in the context of the narrative and as far as the best linguistic scholars can conclude. This story is not a parable. It differs in significant and concrete ways from other stories that are parables.

(This is important)

Asaph

I have a motto for myself. Since I'm not learned..(Keep it simple.)

In Christ Forever · Nov 29, 2004

27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 'for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment

Click to expand...

.

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah .

He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. The Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Jesus wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!

Kind of matches up perfectly to jeremiah. The jews are "landless" forever untill they come to the CROSS. Guess that is what the "lake of fire" the rich man/judah is in. Interesting.

Jeremiah 17:1 "The sin of Judah [is] written with a pen of iron; With the point of a diamond [it is] engraved On the tablet of their heart, And on the horns of your altars, 2 While their children remember Their altars and their wooden images By the green trees on the high hills. 3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders.3 O My mountain in the field, I will give as plunder your wealth, all your treasures, [And] your high places of sin within all your borders. 4 And you, even yourself, Shall let go of your heritage which I gave you; And I will cause you to serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger [which] shall burn forever."

Father Rick · Nov 29, 2004

Wow... I thought I had seen over-allegorization of scripture before... but... wow....

When studying scripture ALWAYS look at the face value of the scripture first. It is only after we look at the plain meaning of the text should one even begin to look to see if there might possibly be a more allegorical interpretation.

Is it possible that Christ may have intended all these things... well it is possible. But they are clearly not the emphasis of the passage. In this passage, Jesus does not say this is a parable, but rather is quite specific that he was telling a story about a specific person... "a certain rich man...a certain man named Lazarus..." The emphasis of the passage is the importance of showing compassion to those less fortunate than ourselves, not about the rejection of the Gospel by the Pharisees.

Oh, and by the way... Purple was the color of the tribe of Issachar (gemstone is amethyst). Judah's colors are emerald green as primary and sky blue as secondary.

Andrew · Nov 30, 2004

When studying scripture ALWAYS look at the face value of the scripture first. It is only after we look at the plain meaning of the text should one even begin to look to see if there might possibly be a more allegorical interpretation.

Is it possible that Christ may have intended all these things... well it is possible. But they are clearly not the emphasis of the passage.

That is an interesting point Father Rick.

I dont think anyone is denying that it is a real story with real people. But even real stories can have spiritual truths behind them that the Holy Spirit can reveal to us. IOW, it does not need to be a parable.

That is the beauty of the Word. It is alive! It is dynamic! Not stagnant with only one surface-level or face-value meaning.

Take the example of the creation of Adam. Adam is a real man that lived. It's not a parable nor is it a folktale. Yet there are spiritual truths there of Christ and the church. Typologies, shadows, etc. There is also a picture of the church and Israel in the real story of Jesus healing the woman with an issue of blood while on his way to heal Jairus daughter. And so on and so forth...

A4C · Nov 30, 2004

When Jesus spoke parables He did so so that they could be heard in the natural sense and had meaning (ie sowing natural seed ) and others might hear in the spiritual sense (ie sowing spiritual seed)
Now the 5 brothers could indeed be five natural brothers of the rich man.
But I have a spiritual understanding which perhaps requires some background information. Because the theme is eternal life I see it as end times related as much of Jesus' teaching was. Now if you refer to Revelation you will recal the prevalance of the number seven. Now I have equated ALL these sevens as having reference to the seven covenants The Lord has made since creation. Now as the last of the seven was not applicable at the time of Jesus' parable there were only six - the sixth being The Law applicable at the time the rich man died and went to hell. Now if he represents the sixth covenant than it is possible that the spiritual meaning is that his "brothers" were similar sinful souls of the other five covenants. Now all this makes sense if you can accept that Revelation indicates how God intends to deal with (restore them to Himself) each of His covenants in the reverse order that He formed them (beginning with the Church) That being the case, the parable is a warning to the other "five" endtimes peoples to believe as God has ordained

Asaph · Nov 30, 2004

Trish1947 said:
I have a motto for myself. Since I'm not learned..(Keep it simple.)

Yes I agree Trish, and that's really what I'm trying to do here. The simplest and clearest understanding of this passage comes from the fact that Jesus is speaking of particular persons.

Now I am not saying that the story doesn't have spiritual dimensions to it. In fact, I would be very surprised if it didn't. But Jesus made a distinction between speaking in parables and telling true stories that shouldn't be overlooked. Actual parables have a dual purpose. One is to transmit truth to those who believe, but the other is to keep from transmitting truth to those who do not.

Therefore, this is a story that even unbelievers can clearly understand and should be recognized as such first. IMO, the spiritual significance of this particular story is secondary and was intended as such all along.

Asaph

muffler dragon · Nov 30, 2004

I've been privy to this particular discussion before, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the OP premise is spurious.

Anyways...

I did want to comment to NewSong that bosom of Abraham is another synonym used for 'paradise'. Neither term is constituted as heaven or the throne of G-d.

m.d.

NewSong · Nov 30, 2004

muffler dragon said:
I've been privy to this particular discussion before, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks the OP premise is spurious.

Anyways...

I did want to comment to NewSong that bosom of Abraham is another synonym used for 'paradise'. Neither term is constituted as heaven or the throne of G-d.

m.d.

My brother told me that the other day "Muffler Dragon" and thank you for sharing...Do you know where I might find that passage in the Bible?

God Bless 'Muffler Dragon'

NewSong

What are the 5 brothers in parable of Rich man/lazarus

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