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What am I to make of the discord among Christians?

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DarkProphet

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A friend of mine invited me to an event called the Harvest Crusade (sponsored by the Calvary Chapel). It was an event with music and an a main speaker. The speaker gave the generic talk about how God can change your life and gave the laundry list of things that might be wrong with you, from drugs to bad relationships to every other conceivable thing God could either help you with or make right. At the end he did a general call for people to come on down (literally) and accept Christ. I was less then moved.

The real story begins as we are leaving though because outside there was large groups of protesters. Going from group to group we saw that they were from varies Christian groups protesting the event for varies reasons. One protester said that the "come on down" part was unchristian because God choses his followers not people themselves. Another said the whole event was unchristian because it doesn't set expectations for these new "Christians". Yet another said the event was unchristian because of the merchandising.

Then there were the Christian groups trying to market themselves to the new "Christians". From the humble old lady passing out tracks to the hippy commune people passing out books to the guy shouting that we were all going to hell they peddled a variety of ideas on the Bible and Christianity.

As an outsider looking in what am I supposed to make of the discord among Christians?
 

the.Sheepdog

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wow. I don't know what to tell you. You find all kinds of nuts in society and yes I guess some of the same people get involved with religion too.

Christianity isnt about who chose whom, or merchandising, or come on down or any of that ballyhoo.

Christianity is about one person, say me, having a personal relationship with God thru Jesus Christ. It is man who decided that you have to do this or that or the other thing. Those folks then had to name themselves all the different denominations of the rainbow and beyond to show they are different from all those others they condemn.

The bible says that the whole of the law is summed up in two laws: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind and soul; and Love your neighbor at least as much as you love yourself.

Doesnt it sound like the people you met that night missed that part entirely?
 
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ebia

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'supposed' by whom?

What's more important is what did you make of it?
 
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DarkProphet

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Honestly? I think they felt they were living up to those laws in their own way. After all most of the groups felt they were there to save people from eternal damnation.
 
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DarkProphet

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'supposed' by whom?

A general non-Christian, remember that the Harvest Crusade is an event specifically setup to draw in non-Christians to evangelize to them.

What's more important is what did you make of it?
What I got out of all that (and from my time here) is that there no definitive way to interpret the Bible, people will get out of it whatever they want.

I've seen Christians shout like lunatics about how I'm going to hell in real life. I've seen Christians defend murder, genocide, and slavery on these boards. I've seen Christians use others faith to force them to their will. I've seen Christians emotionally abuse children through their faith. I've seen Christians physically abuse children because of their beliefs. I've seen Christians show a general arrogance because they are Christian. I've seen Christians show a surprising amount of ignorance on the most basic topics. I've seen Christians show pride on their ignorance.

I got a bit carried away but you asked what I made of that event and of the general discord. The problem is this, because they can interpret the Bible however they want Christians are free to do these things and more without fear of guilt. From what I've seen they truly think they are doing the right thing. Such a situation is scary to me, to think that you are right no matter what just because you feel commanded from above. Of course there will be other Christians saying you are wrong but obviously they are just like the pharisees and should be ignored.

That is what I made from all my observations of Christians.
 
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ebia

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A general non-Christian, remember that the Harvest Crusade is an event specifically setup to draw in non-Christians to evangelize to them.
Um, that's not quite what I meant. But never mind.

Sounds like a reasonable, or at least not-unreasonable, assessment of the situation you describe.
 
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Bible2

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DarkProphet posted in message #1 of this thread:

What am I to make of the discord among Christians?

Greetings.

Note that there is not supposed to be any discord (or even different
denominaions) among us Christians: "Now I beseech you, brethren,
by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing,
and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be
perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 
For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them
which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among
you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I
of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided?"
(1 Corinthians 1:10-13).

So what we are to make of the discord among us Christians is that
we fallible Christians are not being obedient to God and His Holy Word
the Bible, which Bible is to be the sole, infallible source of our unity in
doctrine, and by departing from which arises all our disunity in
doctrine: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly
furnished unto all good works. I charge thee therefore before God,
and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead
at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in
season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering
and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure
sound doctrine
; but after their own lusts shall they heap to
themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away
their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy
3:16-4:4).

DarkProphet posted in message #1 of this thread:

One protester said that the "come on down" part was unchristian
because God choses his followers not people themselves.

It is true that it is God who chooses who comes into faith and
salvation, instead of people choosing God: "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you" (John 15:16); "For by grace are ye saved
through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of
God" (Ephesians 2:8); "as many as were ordained to eternal life
believed" (Acts 13:48b). For this reason, no one can come to faith
in Jesus unless God himself is drawing them to Jesus and gives them
the ability to believe in Jesus: "Therefore said I unto you, that no
man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father"
(John 6:65), "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw him" (John 6:44). That's why not all people are going
to "come on down", why some will be (in one's words) "less than
moved". So the protester was correct in saying (in one's words) "God
choses his followers not people themselves".
 
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Bible2

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DarkProphet posted in message #1 of this thread:

Another said the whole event was unchristian because it doesn't set
expectations for these new "Christians".

That, actually, is a very good point. For what the "come on down"
invitation at the end of an an evangelistic sermon should really be is
a command for all those who have come into faith during the sermon
to immediately repent from all of their sins and undergo water-
immersion baptism: "Now when they heard this [evangelistic sermon],
they were pricked in their heart [by God, drawing them into faith in
Jesus], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and
brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and
be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the
remission of sins" (Acts 2:36-38).

For some inexplicable reason, many of us Christians today completely
ignore the Bible's teachings regarding repentance and baptism. We
tell new believers that they don't need to do anything to be saved,
not even repent, that their new faith covers all of their sins, whether
they actually ever repent from them or not. But the Bible shows
clearly that repentance is absolutely necessary, for "except ye repent,
ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). And baptism is also absolutely
necessary, for "baptism doth also now save us" (1 Peter 3:21);
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16).
Also for some inexplicable reason, many many of us Christians today
also completely ignore the necessity of believers to actually obey God
and do good works in order to be saved in the end, for God "will render
to every man according to his deeds: To them who by
patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and
immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do
not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and
wrath" (Romans 2:6-8). So we're back to the point that if all of us
Christians simply followed what the Bible itself teaches, we would all
teach the same thing, we would all set the exact same Biblical
expectations for all Christians, no matter whether they're new
Christians or old Christians. So the point is one must stop focusing on
the discord among us fallible Christians, and instead look to the Bible
itself for the truth, one must "search the scriptures daily, whether
these things are so" (Acts 17:11).

DarkProphet posted in message #1 of this thread:

Yet another said the event was unchristian because of the
merchandising.

That's another really good point. For even we Christians are
imperfect, and so we can fall into a wrong greediness for more
money and more "stuff": "Take heed, and beware of covetousness:
for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which
he possesseth" (Luke 12:15). So even we Christians can sometimes
wrongly employ "a cloke of covetousness" (1 Thessalonians 2:5), that
is, try to make money off of other Christians under false pretexts
which sound like they're for holy reasons. For example: "Oh, the
church is selling these T-shirts not so the pastor can buy another
Mercedes, but so that he can preach the gospel to the world!". Or:
"Oh, we aren't selling these posters so the pastor's wife can buy
some more jewelry, but so people can have the Word of God on their
walls!". Or: "Oh, we aren't asking you to 'plant a seed' so that this
ministry can buy a new mansion for the evangelist, but so that he
can expand his ministry to the lost!". And so on. So one cannot look
to us fallible Christians to know if what we are doing is right or not,
but must look to what the Bible itself teaches us to do: "All scripture
is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
(2 Timothy 3:16).
 
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Bible2

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The point of these replies to one's post is that one must look
beyond the discord among us fallible Christians and start looking to
the infallible Bible itself, which is not filled with legends, but things
that actually happened: "For we have not followed cunningly devised
fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter
1:16); "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and
our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was
manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto
you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested
unto us) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you,
that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is
with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:1-3).

If one can take anything good away from the discord among us
Christians, it could be that even in our personal relationships with
Jesus, he does not turn us into "Borg"-like automatons who are all
the same, who have no free will, no personality. Jesus leaves us as
real human beings, with very different personalities, very different
strengths and weaknesses. If we all will choose to submit ourselves
to what God's own Word the Bible actually teaches about everything,
then instead of our differences as unique individuals causing us
discord, they can instead be combined into one church which is truly
and amazingly "one body" (Ephesians 4:4).

All of us unique, individual Christians should be operating together like
one human body, which though it is only one body still includes very
different parts: "For the body is not one member, but many. If the
foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is
it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am
not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If
the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God
set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased
him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But
now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye
cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee
: nor again
the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those
members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
And those members of the body, which we think to be less
honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our
uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely
parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together,
having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That
there should be no schism in the body; but that the members
should have the same care one for another" (1 Corinthians 12:14-25).
 
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Bible2

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DarkProphet posted in message #5 of this thread:

The problem is this, because they can interpret the Bible however
they want Christians are free to do these things and more without
fear of guilt.

Actually, Christians can't interpret the Bible however they want;
every wrong interpretation of one verse in the Bible will almost
always be contradicted by another verse in the Bible. For example,
take the following verses: "For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest
any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:7-8). A very common
misinterpretation of these verses is that Christians do not need to
do any works to be saved in the end. But this misinterpretation is
contradicted by many other verses, for just two examples: "Not
every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the
kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father
which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21); "Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24).

So then what are we to make of Ephesians 2:7-8? Well, we know
that what it means cannot contradict what Matthew 7:21 and
James 2:24 mean, for "All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine" (2 Timothy 3:16). So all three
passages have to be true at the same time. The answer is that
Ephesians 2:7-8 is only referring to our initial salvation: God does
not choose to give us the gift of faith based on our prior works:
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according
to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). But once we are saved, we
do need to actually obey God and perform good works if we want
to be saved in the end, for (as we saw in a post above) God "will
render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by
patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and
immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and
do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and
wrath" (Romans 2:6-8).

So the Bible itself will almost always correct any misinterpretation
of it. But this requires that we actually know everything that the
Bible teaches, every last word of the Bible: "Man shall not live by
bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth
of God" (Matthew 4:4). If we just know a handful of verses in the
Bible which we like and which we are misinterpreting, we will never
come into a true understanding of those verses. We have to
compare all verses in the Bible regarding a subject with all other
verses in the Bible regarding that same subject, and come up with a
synthesis of what they all together are saying about that subject:
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to
understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn
from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon
precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a
little
" (Isaiah 28:9-10); "Which things also we speak, not in the
words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost
teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Corinthians
2:13). If all of us Christians will do this, we will all arrive at the same,
correct interpretation of the Bible. The problem is, most of us
Christians couldn't be bothered to perform such a detailed study
and comparison of every word in the Bible. We would rather use our
free time watching television and playing video games; we would
rather take it easy and never have to be "weaned from the milk, and
drawn from the breasts" of whatever our favorite preachers tell us
and whatever our favorite (misinterpreted) handful of verses say.

This is because we Christians remain fallible. But the Word of God
itself nonetheless remains perfectly infallible, and will outlast all of
our silly discord: "For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man
as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof
falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is
the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Peter 1:24-25).
One must take one's eyes off of fallible men of flesh, and all of their
discord, and instead focus one's eyes on God's Word itself, the Holy
Bible: "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith
which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect,
throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Timothy 3:15-17).

Of course, this assumes that we are men of God, for only men of God
will actually read the Bible and believe what it says: "He that is of
God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye
are not of God" (John 8:47); "the natural man receiveth not the
things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"
(1 Corinthians 2:14). But if one is of God, and one continues to read
the Bible even when one doesn't understand all of it, God will
eventually grant one his gift of faith, for "faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17); "and as many as
were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).
 
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Sketcher

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There are different opinions on what should be emphasized, and on how X command should be practiced. And that's less than ideal to say the least. But going so far as to protest the event outside its gates is way beyond the pale. There are Biblical ways of handling conflict, but these protesters have decided to forgo them.
 
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