What about these men?

Patmos said:

I have never understood the single predestinarian view - not hyper Calvinism - that God predestined the elect but passed over the non elect. I don't get it. This is no different IMO to the hyper view, that God predestined the reprobate ( I.e God is the author of sin). It seems to me to just be a work around which never works. If it did work then there would not have been the debate we are in for the last 1500 years.

Click to expand...

John Calvin himself taught double predestination (the saved and damned are predestined to their eternal destiny). This is what he wrote and taught:

The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny…. By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death (Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.21.5, emphasis added).

Click to expand...

Does that make Calvin a hyper-Calvinist?

Oz

Job8 said:

There are still a few diehard Calvinists out there. As to who is telling the truth, that is a matter of comparing what preachers say with what Scripture says. If the Bible says that "whosoever will may come" but a preacher says something else, then you will know what is true and what isn't.

Click to expand...

So do you mean that John Piper, John MacArthur, R C Sproul, Steve Lawson, James White, J I Packer, and Albert Mohler Jr are not telling the truth because of their support for Calvinism?

Oz

EmSw said:

So, do you stand by the perseverance of the saints? If you don't know why these men didn't persevere, then I can say, perseverance isn't what Calvinism correctly teaches. Perhaps you are a TULI Calvinist.



You say you make no claim to know the hearts and minds of men, but then turn right around and claim to know what is in mine.



I'm not dissuading you of your beliefs; you have the autonomous free will to choose as you wish.

I take from your answers, you have the slightest idea why men hold to Calvinism, some for years and some theologians of Calvinism, and then leave. How do you know this won't happen to you?

Click to expand...

Not everyone is a 5-point Calvinist. Bizarre, if you ask me, but that's just that.

As for the rest of your hypothesis, there is no smoking gun. The same happens in every denomination or doctrinal foundation.

It proves nothing.

EmSw said:

Oz, do you believe in double-predestination? If not, who is telling the truth, you or Calvin?

Click to expand...

I most certainly do not believe in double predestination. How do we know who is telling the truth?

According to John 5:39 (ESV), Jesus said, 'You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me'. Search the Scriptures for the truth regarding predestination.

Also, 2 Tim 2:15 (ESV) exhorts us: 'Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth'. All believers need to learn how to 'rightly handle' the Scriptures in their interpretation. The Greek translated 'rightly handle' is orthotomounia, which means 'cutting straight' (here is the only use of the word in the NT) and it is like 'ploughing a straight furrow.... The metaphor is the stone mason cutting the stones straight.... Since Paul was a tent-maker and knew how to cut straight the rough camel-hair cloth, why not let that be the metaphor? Certainly plenty of exegesis is crooked enough (crazy-quilt patterns) to call for careful cutting to set it straight' (Robertson 1931:619-620).

That's the challenge for you, me and every other interpreter of Scripture. It doesn't come overnight. I've been working at it for about 50 years and I've had lots of people along the way who have helped with exegesis and biblical interpretation.

Oz

Works consulted
Robertson, A T 1931. Word pictures in the New Testament: The epistles of Paul, vol 4. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.

Post Tenebras Lux said:

Not everyone is a 5-point Calvinist. Bizarre, if you ask me, but that's just that.

As for the rest of your hypothesis, there is no smoking gun. The same happens in every denomination or doctrinal foundation.

It proves nothing.

Click to expand...

Why didn't you answer his 3 questions?

Yes, there are 4 point Calvinists, known as Amyraldians, who don't believe in limited atonement or particular redemption. Ron Rhodes is such a scholar who has built a case for unlimited atonement.

Michael Jensen teaches at the evangelical Anglican, Moore Theological College, Sydney, Australia (generally known for its Calvinistic promotion), and he does not believe in limited atonement because of the biblical teaching.

Oz

EmSw said:

Why does God not decree, predestine, ordain, and determine that His people believe the same truths? Why would God choose to have some of His people believe truths and others believe lies?

It happens is non-Reformed denominations because we believe in man's autonomous free will to choose as he desires. Do you believe man chooses autonomously as he desires?

Click to expand...

Arminians do not believe in 'autonomous free will'. That's Enlightenment thinking.

See Jack Cottrell, 'Sovereignty & Free Will'.

Oz

OzSpen said:

So do you mean that John Piper, John MacArthur, R C Sproul, Steve Lawson, James White, J I Packer, and Albert Mohler Jr are not telling the truth because of their support for Calvinism?

Click to expand...

Well that is the only logical conclusion. The standard of truth is Scripture, not the teachings of men. Unfortunately the ones who believe in Sola Scriptura fail to apply that principle in this matter.

Job8 said:

Well that is the only logical conclusion. The standard of truth is Scripture, not the teachings of men. Unfortunately the ones who believe in Sola Scriptura fail to apply that principle in this matter.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's an accurate criticism. Most evangelical Calvinists whom I meet do believe in and apply Sola Scriptura. The differences come from diverse interpretations. They believe in Sola Scriptura, as I do, but their hermeneutics cause them to arrive at different conclusions.

I have not found that they are being dishonest but that by the standard of truth they consider they are remaining faithful to Sola Scriptura. Therefore, the level at which we need to engage with them is in the area of biblical interpretation and the nitty gritty of exegesis. Now this is something many of the laity don't want to engage in or are not equipped to do it.

Oz