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Aryus

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I have some questions concerning churches that have been at the forefront of my mind for some time now, and I would like to hear what people think. First, it would perhaps be of benefit to those who try to answer that I give some background of my own spiritual journey (or feel free to skip straight to the numbered questions).

I rejected my parents’ attempts to get me to accept Christianity at a young age because I saw great hypocrisy in the church they belonged to and at the time I saw the Bible as simply an old book with no basis. I assumed that this was what Christianity IS, a bunch of hypocrites who claim to base their lives on a book that is not any more true than “The Lord of the Rings”. I became an intellectual rebel, you might say, and turned to politics, humanitarian causes, philosophy, and debauchery in a search for meaning. I always considered the “big questions” like the meaning of life, the nature of reality, etc. to be “front-burner” issues in my life and I would spend literally hours each day pondering them and reading what others had to say about them. These questions consumed me, and I never understood why most people did not take them seriously. I went through various phases of agnosticism, atheism, and “spiritualism” but never felt complete, never felt that the questions were really being adequately answered, never felt that any of the many philosophers I had read were totally right, and never felt that my life had real meaning or purpose nor that these things were supplying any. I recently realized that no matter how many smaller “meanings” (such as political, social, or humanitarian causes, pleasure-seeking, scientific inquiry, wealth accumulation, etc.) one piles up, if there is no higher Meaning outside of this world or this life that if over and above those smaller meanings, then the whole thing would collapse like a skyscraper without a foundation. I very slowly began to look more into Christianity. Initially, this was to disprove it and assure myself that meaning could not be found there so I could move on, but the opposite happened and I began to see that if Christianity is true, if Jesus was the Son of God sent to save us and teach the Good News, then life has meaning, life has purpose, and life has joy. Further, I finally began to accept Christianity itself. Apologetics has really helped me here, and many of my initial qualms have been settled by listening to the likes of Peter Kreeft, Lee Strobel, and C.S. Lewis. In some ways, I am glad I went though some of the phases I did, because I now have an understanding of logic and philosophy and have read the writings of philosophers like Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Camus, and Sartre. I also have a fairly thorough firsthand knowledge of Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, and “New Age” religions and what their pitfalls are, and I know what arguments work and which ones don’t work for and against agnostics and atheists.

So this is where I am today. But where is that? I am reading and pondering the Bible every day, and I have attended various churches in my community. The problem is I have never felt “right” in any of them, and in most of them I have noticed that some things are taught that are contradicted in scripture, yet the congregation either does not notice this or chooses to overlook it. So this is my problem, and my questions are:

1) Is membership in a church NECESSARY for salvation and a Christian Life, or can these things be attained and lived without a church? What is the justification for this?

2) If church membership is necessary, is there any indication that picking the RIGHT church is necessary? Is it the case that it is different strokes for different folks, that diversity in churches is okay and certain churches “fit” certain people, or is it that case that there is ONE church that ALL true Christians are to belong to? What is the justification for this?

3) If there is a right church (or a type of right church), what SIGNS do I look for to find that right one? Is SOLA SCRIPTURA (“scripture alone”, the doctrine that all religious teaching and doctrine is to be found in the Scriptures) a necessary teaching in a church, or is additional reliance on TRADITION necessary to fill apparent gaps? Are SPIRITUAL GIFTS a sign that a church is true, or is that something that ended long ago? What is the justification for this?

I think the issue of the “right” church can be made easier if it is determined whether the church was supposed to be unchanging and universal or if it is supposed to change with the time and place it occupies to more efficiently conduct ministry and fellowship. If the former is true, we should model churches off how churches were in the earliest times of Christianity, but that is a hard task today as some information from that time period is missing. If the latter is true, then it may make the task easier, but some sort of boundary would have to be established where a church is definitively no longer Christian, or else we could easily fall into religious pluralism. It seems that these are questions all Christians should consider.
 

ebia

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1) Is membership in a church NECESSARY for salvation and a Christian Life, or can these things be attained and lived without a church? What is the justification for this?
The story of Scripture is the story of God working through a people to put the world right. Initially that's the descendant's of Abraham but as it comes to a climax in Jesus he redefines it somewhat, or redefines who the descendents of Abraham are, or however you want to put it - around those who follow him. I.e. exactly who the People of God are changes it's character somewhat, but it is still - first and formost - about a people, a community that gathers. Christianity is a community activity - like having a party, you cannot do it on your own by definition.

The New Testament doesn't nail down what exactly that community might look like - indeed it draws a picture that is remarkably varied, fluid and flexible, but living and responding in community is part of the essence of what it means to follow the Trune God who has relationship at the very centre of who he is.

No single part of the church is perfect. That's not to say that all are equally wrong, but there is actually something to be said for being part of a community that isn't quite what you think it should be, seeing God working in amazing places there, and learning what that tradition has to teach you.

I would steer clear of any that:
a. tell you what you cannot think
b. tell you they have got everything right
c. tell you that everybody else has got everything wrong
d. get stroppy if you ask awkward questions.
e. are not open to constant reform
f. values answers more than questions

Wherever you go, focus on the best of what they have to offer, and the best of what you have to offer in return. Don't dwell too much on the inadequacies or you'll go round in over-critical circles.

But remember that you are a member of the whole church, and within that of a local congregation with a particular tradition. The Church is all God's assembling people (abeit that's a broken community), not one particular expression.

God just is. But he steps in the particulars of history, of particular times, places and cultures. Anything that is about God incarnate has to hold those two in tension. The church's job is to try to hold those two together with arms outstretched as if on a cross - and often it does, if you are really doing it, feel like being ripped apart. If it doesn't hurt you've let go of God or you've let go of the world.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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The role of the church should be to lead all its members to Christ. God will is that there be a united church grooming its members to grow in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Having said this, it is possible have salvation without being a member of a church but it is not ideal. Church fellowship was stressed up in the bible as it allows members to grow in grace. Of course back then there was a united church more or less. Because of pollution in the church for many years where one church dictated what was to be believed we have an abundance of churches now trying to return to the truth.

As we come down to the end of time, the gap between truth and error will broaden and the truth will be easier to see. This is so because the entire would would be divided into only two groups.

1. Those who take the mark of the beast.
2. Those who do not.

You have to stick with the second group. And the bible gives a clear identifier for the second group.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

This is what God's true people will do.
 
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revrobor

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First Aryus, let me tell you what I have learned after 61 years as a follower of the Lord Jesus. Notice I said "..as a follower of the Lord Jesus." not "as a Christian". I no longer refer to myself as a Christian because that implies membership, or at least involvement in, some religious institution ("church"). I find nowhere in the New Testament any instructions for establishing a religious organization and the buildings that go with it. There are instructions for the Body of Believers but everywhere in the New Testament the word "Church" is used it is referring to the Body NOT a religious institution. I have concluded the the religious institutions we know have been established by man with all their rituals, dogma, icons, rules, regulations and non-Biblical requirements and have done more to damage the cause of Christ than Satan could have ever hoped for. So to answer the "church membership" question NO it is not necessary in order to have a relationship with Go. But we should gather with other believers and you can do that anywhere. The New Testament gatherings were in Believers homes. Therefore, it can be concluded there is no "right" church. Yes, the Church (Body) was meant to be unchanging. But like everything man gets his hands on it has been screwed up. The best source for spiritual growth and questions is the Bible. Use a translation you can understand and when you are having trouble with that ask GOD to interpret it for you. You may find a religious institution that fits you and that you want to support. But watch out for erroneous teaching.
 
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Aryus

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Thank you all for your informative responses, and a Merry Christmas to you all as well.

I have spent the past two days looking through the Bible for any guidance on this issue, and I have come up with less than I had expected. It DOES seem from the teachings of Jesus himself (which I look at before anything else in Scripture) that what he asks is that we believe in him. Now, I would expect that this would entail a particular way of thinking and acting and the formation of fellowship of some kind, but it does not seem to in any way imply a requirement for a membership in any codified, worldly organization. It appears from the descriptions of the procedures in the early church that they were meant as methods of remembering Jesus and their Jewish roots and of glorifying God, not that they were necessary rituals for salvation. On the other hand, there is certainly nothing WRONG with these basic elements of a church.

The thing that really bugs me is that when I walk into most churches I find them lifeless, when they should be more full of life than any other places on Earth. When I compare the amount of passion in the vast majority of church services I have been in with the amount of passion in the vast majority of sport events I have witnessed, the people at the sport events are almost always much more passionate, and this makes no sense to me. At the games they are energetic, attentive, happy, lively, and passionate. In church they are somber, bored, grumpy, morose, and agitated. Now, how could this be? In one, the people are praising the glory of the Creator and Father of us all, giving thanks for the selfless sacrifice of His son and for the wonder and fulfillment that he brings into our lives, and literally taking part in a war against ultimate evil and his demons. In the other, the people are watching a game. Furthermore, the people I see in church are often the same people I see at the games. I know this is not the case in ALL churches, but the ones I have been in where I saw more passion are often also churches that teach things that are contradicted in scripture or are not focused on scripture or Christ at all (in one of these churches, a "prosperity gospel" church, the pastor did not mention Jesus at all during his entire sermon).

It is all very confusing to me. I feel the need to be involved in fellowship, but I do not know where to turn and whenever I do turn somewhere I don't even see Christians! One can only ignore the discrepancies one sees between teaching and action so long before it simply cannot be tolerated any more.

I will just put my trust in Christ and turn to Him for guidance, which is probably what I should have done from the start.
 
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ebia

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The thing that really bugs me is that when I walk into most churches I find them lifeless, when they should be more full of life than any other places on Earth.
Absolutely. Your local church should be somewhere where you can walk down and see what the Kingdom of God is like, at least in anticipation.

I will just put my trust in Christ and turn to Him for guidance, which is probably what I should have done from the start.


And don't be afraid to look in unlikely places. Sometimes it's the most surprising communities where the Kingdom of God actually comes alive.

That said we also need to be a little bit careful - it's easy to be passionate with an escapist thing like sport, where as Jesus is operating in the very real world, warts and all. Creating an escapist atmosphere where people can forget their worries for an hour or two and go with some raw unfocused emotion is easy, whether its a football game or one of tele-evanglist style conferences. Good worship isn't trying to do that, its trying to celebrate the God come among us into the s... of our daily lives to walk along side us and show us how to have hope. That's a very different prospect.

The church should be passionate, excited and joyful; not at the unsustainable, superficial, level of a football match where problems are forgotten for an hour but at the level of people very much still away of all the problems but realising they are invited to be part of the struggle to a long term solution by the God who makes a solution possible.
 
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OzSpen

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Aryus,
Have you considered these verses? "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:24-25 NIV). Should this have anything to do with whether you participate in a church group or not?

What about this verse? Should this have anything to do with what happens when you meet with a group of God's people? "What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church" (1 Corinthians 14:26 NIV).

I have found that these kinds of biblical emphases happen best in house churches or cell groups of traditional churches. I recommend that you seek out a house church locally or join a cell group of an evangelical church.

If you do your research into the earliest churches you will find that there is a strong case for meeting in houses and not in cathedrals or "church buildings." NT Christianity was built on encouraging one another and ministering to one another through the gifts of the Spirit. Such is difficult, if not impossible, to happen in a larger group of people.
 
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Epiphoskei

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If you do your research into the earliest churches you will find that there is a strong case for meeting in houses and not in cathedrals or "church buildings."

The earliest of the earliest churches were still quasi-attached to the synagogues, which had designated buildings. House churches really only arose after Christians were kicked out of synagogues and had no other place for gathering.
 
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ebia

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The earliest of the earliest churches were still quasi-attached to the synagogues, which had designated buildings. House churches really only arose after Christians were kicked out of synagogues and had no other place for gathering.
Please remember only to respond to the Opening Poster, not to other Christians responses. This forum is not for inter-Christian discussion.
 
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ebia

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The rules do seem to say "You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint." That's all...
It's fine to talk about differing viewpoints, but word it to the original poster and his question rather than responding to another Christian and then it doesn't turn into a debate.

Having a variety of points of view is good, but if we pick at each other's posts it inevitably becomes a discussion and then a debate with each other, which is counter to what this particular forum is for.

If you can't word it to the Opening Poster without reference to what someone else said that's probably an indicator that it shouldn't be said.

To work, Exploring Christianity requires some self-discipline from the posters; putting our perspective but letting some of the things one disagrees with in the perspective of others go unchallenged.
 
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ebia

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It's perfectly pertient to the OP's question to point out that the existance of house churches in the first century is not universally interpreted as indicating the preferred church order.
The issue is who you worded it to. If you respond directly to another Christian it inevitably starts a discussion - their response to your response will be equally relevant, on we go, and the thread will need deleting because it's become a debate. Word it to the OP and all is fine. If you can't word it to the OP then it shouldn't be said.
 
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OzSpen

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Epiphoskei,
The earliest of the earliest churches were still quasi-attached to the synagogues, which had designated buildings. House churches really only arose after Christians were kicked out of synagogues and had no other place for gathering.
For I Cor. 14:26 to function in optimal circumstances, I have found it better in a smaller group setting and house churches seem to be ideal for such.
 
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OzSpen

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Ebia,
Are you saying that the rules of this Forum are such that none of us can respond to the content of any other poster except the one who originally posted?
 
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ebia

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Ebia,

Are you saying that the rules of this Forum are such that none of us can respond to the content of any other poster except the one who originally posted?
Pretty much, yes. That's how it works here: non-Christian asks a question, various Christians give a variety fo responses, same non-Christian makes follow up comment/asks further questions, another round of responses, and so forth. By not responding to each other we avoid turning it into a discussion/debate between Christians and focus on directly on the openning poster's enquiry.

It drives one up the wall sometimes, not being able to challenge something one feels is badly wrong, but it ensure the forum keeps its particular character and doesn't just become another debating ground.
 
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OzSpen

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ebia,
That's not what I see happening on a lot of threads to which I have contributed on this Forum.
It drives one up the wall sometimes, not being able to challenge something one feels is badly wrong, but it ensure the forum keeps its particular character and doesn't just become another debating ground.
Surely a responsible Christian forum should follow the biblical mandate: "Test everything; hold fast what is good" (I Thess. 5:21) to every post on the forum. When false doctrine is espoused by a poster other than the original poster, are you saying that the Forum requires that the false doctrine be allowed to stand without a challenge?

Paul's instruction to Titus was, "Teach what accords with sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1). Do we ignore this biblical requirement on this Forum? Do we not see this Forum as a teaching medium?
 
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ebia

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ebia,

That's not what I see happening on a lot of threads to which I have contributed on this Forum.
When the forum is working well it works well. When there is an influx of new posters unfamiliar with the rules and etiquette it gets a bit ropey unless the moderators are really on the ball and quick to step in. They seem to be on holidays or overworked elsewhere at the moment.

Within Exploring Christianity, yes, unless the doctine is sufficiently false to breach CF rules, in which case report it (eg a comment that is clearly non-Trinitarian or non-Nicene). Of course you can and should put your point of view well explained to the OPs question, and you can challenge other comments by PM or by inviting the person you want to challenge to another thread to discuss the issue.


Paul's instruction to Titus was, "Teach what accords with sound doctrine" (Titus 2:1). Do we ignore this biblical requirement on this Forum? Do we not see this Forum as a teaching medium?
Without the rules and discipline of Exploring Christianity it decends into being no different from all the other discussion forums in CF. It's purpose is not for christians to discuss and teach each other, but for non-Christians to ask questions and get (a diversity of ) answers. If you don't like that, don't post here. I've been posting here for a long time, and I find it works on its own terms if people follow the rules. If you want to continue this discussion I suggest we take it to PM since we are now way outside of the forum rules.
 
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aiki

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So this is my problem, and my questions are:

1) Is membership in a church NECESSARY for salvation and a Christian Life, or can these things be attained and lived without a church? What is the justification for this?

What do you mean by "membership"? Many churches have formal membership involving a publicly declared commitment to the church, a vote by other members to "accept into fellowship" a new member, and the freedom to serve in ministries of the church upon obtaining membership. Is this what you mean? If so, no, I don't think this membership has any bearing whatsoever upon one's salvation and Christian life.

If by membership you mean simply attending a local church regularly, I can tell you that doing so is not necessary for salvation, but it is very important to the health of one's spiritual life. "No man is an island" and this is never more true than in the Body of Believers into which every Christian is "born again." Paul the apostle explains:

1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (NKJV)
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.


The apostle John makes it clear that one way a true Christian evidences the genuineness of their faith in Christ is by his/her "love for the brethren."

1 John 4:19-21 (KJV)
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loves God love his brother also.


In context, these verses are directed to Christians and the brethren spoken of here refer in particular to fellow Christians.

The apostle Peter also speaks of "unfeigned love of the brethren" as a mark of a genuinely saved person. (1 Pe. 1:22)

In light of these verses, I do not think that a genuinely born again person will shun the fellowship of other believers. The love of God is "shed abroad" in the heart of every true Christian and it is especially strong for those who are fellow children of God. This fellowship is not necessary for salvation but it is proof positive of a person's genuine spiritual regeneration and vital for the individual Christian's stability and growth as a believer in Christ.


Romans 12:4-5 (KJV)
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Ephesians 4:2-6 (KJV)
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


As Ravi Zacharias is so fond of pointing out, there is "unity in diversity" among Christians. God doesn't expect us to become "cookie-cutter Christians," all looking and behaving in precisely the same way. We have differing interests, abilities, and personalities through which God intends to express Himself. In belief, however, and fundamental life purpose every Christian ought to be united.

Before I go any further, I should point out that The Church is not a building or particular organization, but each individual Christian. Wherever a believer in Christ is, there The Church is, too.

1 Corinthians 3:16(KJV)
16 Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

2 Corinthians 6:15-18 (KJV)
15 And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel?
16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be you separate, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.


1 Corinthians 14:23 (KJV)
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?


Colossians 1:24 (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:


Now, back to what I was saying earlier. Christians aren't expected to be identical in appearance, interest, ability, or personality but they are to be unified in their belief in Christ as Saviour and Lord, and in their fundamental goals in life:

1. We are to love God and each other. (See 1 John)
2. We are to glorify God in all we do. (1 Cor. 10:31)
3. We are to become increasingly like Christ in behaviour and understanding. (Ro. 8:29; 2Cor. 3:18)
4. We are to be ever more able to "rightly divide the Word of Truth," the Bible, and to "give an answer" to any man who asks a "reason for the hope that lies within us." (2Ti. 2:13; 1Pe. 3:15)
5. We are to be more and more separate and distinct from the World in terms of what we value and by our righteous conduct. (2 Cor. 6:17, 18)

What does this mean as far as choosing a church is concerned? Well, look for a church that is diverse and yet fundamentally unified in the things I've mentioned above. I believe it is very necessary to be careful about the local church you join for it will inevitably have an important impact upon how you carry on in your walk with the Lord. Many churches today have been so eager to make God "relevant" and palatable to the unsaved that they have packaged Him into obscurity. Other churches boldly teach outright falsehood, appealing to people's avarice and pride, and encouraging both to flourish. Still other churches march legalistically forward through the world covering hypocrisy with the outward appearance of stringent piety. Ignore such churches and look for one that reflects Christ. Of course, you won't know which one does this best until you know Christ well...


Human tradition has been a detriment to godliness. The Pharisees, especially, exemplify this fact. There are some present-day religious institutions that have placed tradition on par with divinely-revealed Scripture and they are guilty of much of what Christ condemned in the Pharisees. God has made all that is necessary for godly living plain in His Word.

Sola Scriptura is the single best way to approach interpreting the Word of God. What better way to understand God's Word than by itself?

Each believer in Christ as Saviour and Lord is given a spiritual gift. Any church that teaches otherwise is teaching falsehood. These gifts, however, are not of the sort often seen in Charismatic meetings where "miraculous" healings are performed, where people are "slain in the Spirit" and where chaos reigns. Some are gifted to teach, some to preach, some to help, some to discern and "govern," some to do miracles that the Body of Believers might be spiritually edified, not provoked into bedlam.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 (KJV)
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.


Peace.
 
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