Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
gluadys said:And if God did want some prophecies to be in scripture twice, who are you to say he would not use this way of getting it into scripture twice? Are you so sure you know exactly how inspiration works?
genez said:Please, tell us how it works....
Thank you, GeneZ
gluadys said:I am quite willing to admit that I have no idea
depthdeception said:To understand inspiration, one must understand the categories under consideration. Most Christians refer to the bible as the "Word." However, this is not accurate.
Christ is the Word, the eternal Logos of God. The Scriptures are a testament to the Word, to Christ and God's redemptive plan in the history of salvation--they are not the Logos of God.
THerefore, if this is one's understanding (and I think this is the understanding which the Scriptures themselves portray of themselves), Scripture need not be the word-for-word dictation of God to humans. Rather, the Scriptures, as a testament to the Logos, can actually arise out of normal human experience and be recognized as definitive testimonies to the Lordship of Christ and the activity of God in the salvific history of humankind.
depthdeception said:Life View:
Anti-fundamentalist
depthdeception said:Confronting Fundamentalism one day (not a literal 24-hour period) at a time.
genez said:Christ is the living Word. The Bible is the written Word.
The Bible does not contain all there is to know from the Word. The Bible now contains all the knowledge of the Word needed for us to overcome the evils of this world, and to acquire and enjoy the capacity for life while we remain here.
There is more to the Word than the Bible.
Jesus is the Word in its fulness. We now have in written form all what is needed to experience the fulness of Christ within the limits of living in time and space, in a fallen world. Once we enter into Eternity we will have access to much more of the Word. Most likely, then it will be given via thought transference and no longer needed in written form.
An artist may paint in oils. Next day, in airbrush. Next week, he may create digital art. Likewise, God chose certain individuals, and without altering their personalities and the way they think, used them to "paint" his words onto the written page. One day the Lord paints in oils for an effect. Next day he finds a big broad brush and paints a billboard on the road of righteousness. One prophet who was epcifically chosen by God produced one effect. Another prophet with a different temperment, expressed God's given thought in another shade of expression that God desired to be expressed.
2 Peter 1:20-21 niv
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
The Word of God is much more important to Him than a mere tabernacle that he knew would only be temporary. Now, if you believe that there is a God? Then why do you see a problem with God getting into written form that which is held in the highest esteem by God Himself? Is God unable?
Nothing can be magnified above God Himself. If that spoke of Jesus Christ as the living Word, he would have no need to be magnified above anything. He is already their by default. It is the written Word that God magnifies above all. He magnifies it by stressing its importance in the life of the believer.
I see you have a strong dislike for fundies. Not everyone who believes the Word as it is written is true, is a fundy. You do realize that? Don't you?
with time there is more and more genetic mutations and people more closely related are more likely to carry that same genetic mutations that can be passed onto the child who thus is negatively affected.
Critias said:Wasn't it written that God is not the author of confusion?
And, where did geneZ say he knew the mind of God? That is quite an accusation to make without any support.
The way you judge others is the way God will judge you.
rmwilliamsll said:YECist is a modern movement, not a restorationist return to the past, this is an important issue in actually understanding them. They do not deny the importance of scientific epistemology, they want to control it.
....
genez said:Just because we have something, does not mean we will use it. God has nothing to learn. So, we can not instruct him. But, God has given us his written Word so that we can know his mind as we should. We have been given his thinking in terms that we are needing in this life. Its called, "sound doctrine." Not all desire this kind of teaching. Some do. Some don't.
What? I would just love to see that report!
COMPLAINT: "GeneZ actually thinks the Word of God, is the Word of God! Do something with this heretic, please!"
I see... Perhaps? God wanted the confusion?
I will leave you with this...
Do me a favor? If you make that complaint? Please tell them to inform me of what they thought about it? I really find it amsuing that you think it heresey to think the Word of God is blasphemy to believe it. To believe it can be truly understood. That's what I get from your words.
In Christ, GeneZ
genez said:1 Corinthians 2:16 niv
"For "who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ."
Just because we have something, does not mean we will use it. God has nothing to learn. So, we can not instruct him. But, God has given us his written Word so that we can know his mind as we should. We have been given his thinking in terms that we are needing in this life. Its called, "sound doctrine." Not all desire this kind of teaching. Some do. Some don't.
genez said:Then, by your own admittance, you are not qualified to perceive who does.
Yet, you act as if all others have to be as yourself. You have no idea what the grace of God has shown certain people. For, only by the power of God's grace can one know these things. To those walking in the energy of their flesh, they only see others as being equally speculative as they are. As if its all an intellectual exercise in logic. If something seems illogical to the natural mind? Then the Bible has to be wrong. Not the person.
Wishing you the best.
GeneZ
depthdeception said:So you are saying that the bible is the same as Christ, that the bible is that which has existed from eternity with God and is God??? From a theolgoical standpoint, this would make a quandranity, not a trinity, and you should worship the Scriptures. I somehow doubt you want to live up to this necessary conclusion.
Wait a minute. Before you said the bible was the Word (eternal Logos) in written form. Now you are saying that it contains knowledge of the Word (eternal Logos). So which is it? Is the bible the WOrd (eternal Logos) of God, or is it a recepitcle that contains the Word (eternal Logos) of God???
How can this be so? You said ealier that the Scriptures are the Logos in written form...
Let me requote your quote using the understanding which you have laid out that Christ = the Word and the Scriptures = the Word:
"Jesus is the Logos in its fulness. We now have in Christ all that is needed to experience the fulness of Christ....
Or perhaps it was decided that a certain prophet's writings best described the Jewish people's belief in God and understanding of God's involvement in the history of the salvation of Israel, and for this reason deemed to be "inspired" and accepted by the community as a witness to the nature and work of God amongst God's people.
I don't see how this proves your point about the "style" of inspiration.
I don't see an "impossibility" with God doing anything. All I am saying is that such a view of the "utensil-ity" of God "writing" the Scriptures through various people does not seem to square with many of the writers' own views about their writings. Granted the OT prophets believed they spoke for God, and quoted God as saying "such and such." However, when one gets to the New Testament, such views radically change, especially when one gets to Paul who frequently admits that what he is saying is "not a command from God."
The New Testament writers, in no uncertain terms, did not view their own writings as being on the same level of the Scriptures (the OT).
Therefore, if our understanding of inspiration is to include what the NT writers, as a whole, express about the nature of inspiration, it is difficult to see that what you are proposing is what they are testifying to.
This doesn't make any sense. Please explain more fully.
Nothing can be magnified above God Himself. If that spoke of Jesus Christ as the living Word, he would have no need to be magnified above anything. He is already their by default. It is the written Word that God magnifies above all. He magnifies it by stressing its importance in the life of the believer.
Yes, I do realize that, for I myself believe that the Word is true. I also believe the Scriptures are true (but not in a fundementalist sense), just not the same thing as the Word.
genez said:The written Word is the mind (thinking) of Christ that we have been given. I do not worship the Scriptures. The Scriptures direct me (and free me up) to worship the living God.
What we now have in written form was always in the mind of God. The very nature of omniscience reveals this to be true.
The Word is God's means for communication to the created soul. If it is spoken, or written, it does not matter. God does not speak within the Trinity. There is no need with omniscience. The Trinity is shown speaking in the Word as a means to communicate something to our limited perspective.
God does not have a thought within himself, for himself. He is omniscient. His thoughts we read about were designed to communicate to us. Nothing takes God by surprise. God never learns. If God did not provide for his creation the communication device we call "the Word" we would know nothing about God. It is for our sakes he is the Word. He has no need for words. How can you have a conversation with someone who already knew all you would say before you said it? What could he learn from you? The Word is God's means to let us in on what he already knows.
The Lord gives certain believers the gift to understand the Hebrew and Greek texts. Yet, Christ not only knows the Hebrew and Greek texts, he invented them!
Christ is the fulness of the Word. We can have our portion to the full if we are faithful to God's will for our lives. But, our fulness is only a part of the whole.
If you ever experienced the rare phenomena to hear someone with the true ability to teach from the Greek texts the depth to Paul's epistles, you would soon realize that God had the minds of genius in mind in humbling them when they study the writings of Paul. Paul invented new words and terms to fit the new lifestyle we have in Christ. You would never know this by simply reading it in English alone.
God chose a nice sweet man like John to teach on the aspect of God's love. God chose different writing utencils (men with different personalities) for his desired effect on the reader. If God chose Peter to write what Paul was given? Peter would have had no capacity to articulate certain deep thoughts Paul was able to accept from God, and then write down in his own words. God wanted each writer to write in his own words, but God also wanted the man's own words to accurately reflect the meaning of what they were shown in the Spirit! That is why we get different feels for the Word as we read different Epistles. God wanted it to be that way. For that is how the body of Christ functions. Many parts, acting as a whole.
That is not what the Apostle Peter said.
2 Peter 3:16 niv
"He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Peter had already recognized Paul's writings as to be included in with the Scriptures!
God esteems his Word above all things. The Word is a thing. God is not a thing. God can not be created.
The Word of God was made flesh.... Without the Word of God we could never see God. God, as God is. Can not be seen by us. The Word was the invented means by God to communicate thoughts from himself to us, so we can see God in a manner understandable to us.
Every believer should first be a fundamentalist. He should grow in the fundamentals of the faith. Thatis a good thing. But, they should not stay there! If they do, its like a person going through life on a level of a second grade education.
What fundamentalists have become today is a parallel to Islamic religious thinking. Its what happens when human reason is in control over what should only be controlled by the Spirit. Fundies claim to be controlled by the Spirit, but like Islamic fundamentalists, they are simply driven by their emotions, and are influenced by evil. That is why we found fundies murdering abortionists, because they claim abortionists murder. Its stubborn unreasonableness, that is enforced by the belief that their stubborness is from God. Its the adult's version of a little child having a temper tantrum when not getting his way. There is no ability to reason with a fundy. For once you differ, like the Islamic fundamentalist also do, you are seen as being from Satan.
depthdeception said:What is the difference between the thoughts of Christ and Christ? If Christ is the self-revelation of God, and the Scriptures (in your opinion) are the same thing (as communicated thought is self-revelation), how are they different? If they are not different, you have created a fourth member of the Godhead.
On what basis do you say this? Omniscience is a human construction--we don't even know what we mean by the idea of omniscience (and should probably be scared to death if God actually conformed to our definition).
For you claims about the limits of human understanding of the divine, you sure make definitive statements about the relationship of the persons of the Trinity... I don't even understand how what you are asserting in the above quote is even consistent with your own opinion about what we are discussing.
The Word is God's means for communication to the created soul. If it is spoken, or written, it does not matter. God does not speak within the Trinity. There is no need with omniscience. The Trinity is shown speaking in the Word as a means to communicate something to our limited perspective.
Without the Scriptures we would have the full self-revelation of Christ, the Word, the eternal Logos of God. The Scriptures are empty words and pages withouth the Logos.
You have no basis upon which to make this statement, as there are no Scriptures directly attributed to the pen of Jesus. You are making a claim that cannot even be critiqued or discussed!
genez said:If I speak to you in person? Or, write the same thing to you via this medium of expression? Have I created a new 'me'?Don't think so.
Logos is the Word. Without the Holy Spirit Scriptures would be empty words (as far as seeing the supernatural implications).
Are those words, me? Or, someone else? In that sense the written Word is the Word. To read his Word, is to know what the Word says. He does not change. If he did, then the written Word would not be trustworthy.
Throughout Scripture it speaks of God giving gifts to men for special purposes. Here is only one small example:
It seems to me that there is a huge difference between God giving gifts to men (the Scriptures) and the Scriptures being from eternity consubstantial in nature with God (which is the logical conclusion one must reach if the Scriptures are the Word, the eternal Logos of God).
I would really appreciate it if you could respond to my comments in the previous post which are below:
So let me rephrase your statement again, using your definitions:
"The Scriptures of God was made flesh (the same Scriptures which you have asserted are created by God--therefore, Christ is created....) Without the Scriptures of GOd, we could never see God (so God created something to reveal Godself). God, as God is. Can not be seen by us. The Scriptures (which was made flesh--Christ--who is supposed to be God) was the invented means by God to communicate thoughts from himself [sic[ from himself [sic] to us, so we can see God in a manner understandable to us.
Do you really want to go down this road?? I doubt it!"
Didaskomenos said:I would like for you to show me where in the Bible it refers to itself as the written Word of God, as opposed to the Living Word Jesus. We await your enlightenment.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?