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I said "if all started to do it". I know that for example the RCC has a long history of using it.Started? Those terms were in common ecclesiastical use for the first 16 centuries or so within all Christian communions. The usage (as with everything) gets harder to track with the rise of Protestantism in the 16th century, but certainly the early Protestants had no qualms about using the terms. You probably have to go to the 18th century to find people shying away from them in the name of ecumenism.
And this may be a controversial take on an ecumenical forum, but I'd say there was and still is good reason to use those terms to convey the gravity of doctrinal error, and they were successful at doing so until the proliferation of Protestant denominations which has led to indifferentism among many people today. In communions where schism is still recognized for the grave sin that it is, terms like "anathema" and "heretic" do still carry that heavy weight they always have.
Matthew 1:18-25View attachment 353586
Bummer for me.
View attachment 353586
Bummer for me.
Acceptable for me, not for some specific theological views or for some specific historical church.
What contradiction in my belief system do you have in mind?I am merely seeking to make you aware of a contradiction in your belief system between two different aspects of beliefs you have expressed and also of that statement with that of the early church.
But you aren’t Roman Catholic. You haven’t called me a heretic.In my view that leaves you comfortably within ecumenical creedal and conciliar orthodoxy, since the first one is the main issue of the Council of Ephesus, that the Blessed Virgin Mary, (John 1:1) is the Theotokos, by whom the Word became flesh, who is the human mother who gave birth to the only begotten Son and Word of God, who is with God and is God, and it was through this incarnation including a natural birth that Jesus Christ became fully human and fully God without, and this is the crucial anti-Nestorian, anti-Eutychian tritheist aspect, change, confusion, separation, or division.
That the Blessed Virgin Mary is a perpetual virgin was believed by John Calvin, John Wesley, Martin Luther and Thomas Cranmer, among others, but this is frankly not as big of an issue, particularly since the Oriental Orthodox, while believing this doctrine, did not participate in the Fifth Ecumenical Synod.
The Dormition or Assumption is an ancient belief of the Early Church which the Roman Catholic Church only formally made dogma in the 1950s under Pope Pius XII, but which the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox have always believed, and there are compelling reasons to believe it, but it is not recorded in Scripture.
The belief in her Immaculate Conception is rejected by the Orthodox because our soteriology allows her to not have personally sinned while still being born under ordinary conditions, and that was only declared dogma by the Roman Catholics in the 19th century.
So in conclusion, I regard you as ecumenically orthodox. I should like to persuade you of the Dormition and the perpetual Virginity, but insofar as you accept the status of St. Mary as being the human mother of God in the person of the Son, the Theotokos, to use the language of the Third Ecumenical Synod in Ephesus, this agrees with the beliefs of Calvin, Luther, Cranmer and all the reformers and all orthodox church Fathers.
But you aren’t Roman Catholic. You haven’t called me a heretic.
I’m not sure I agree with your premises but I do agree with the conclusion via other premises.It's not as if ALL of Christian Belief and Truth can just be "deduced" out by way of a constant dialectic among Christians, in whatever post-Apostolic council.
Personally, I think some Christian doctrines are best to be allowed to reside in the mystery of the reflection they have in the epistemic glass by which we peer into to see them. No human being really has the final word on topics that reflect varying degrees of historical obscurity for everyone alive today.
And the upshot? The upshot is that someone like Dr. Taylor Marshall needs to stop blowing his own horn so hard.
I am not an anathema specialist to know your standing with that. As to being a heretic, which involves the obstinate teaching of things contrary to the faith, less is better and zero is best. But if you don’t obstinately teach it you aren’t even a heretic.What percentage do I need to get before I’m no longer anathema?
Well, let me know when you figure it out. Holding to the creeds is a thing almost on par with holding to the Scriptures. One should not deviate lightly from either.Couldn’t tell you. But I reject what in the OP.
I deviate with one point at least. So am I anathema? Is the guy in the OP correct?I am not an anathema specialist to know your standing with that. As to being a heretic, which involves the obstinate teaching of things contrary to the faith, less is better and zero is best. But if you don’t obstinately teach it you aren’t even a heretic.
Well, let me know when you figure it out. Holding to the creeds is a thing almost on par with holding to the Scriptures. One should not deviate lightly from either.
Ooh, so that means anyone who is unsure about the 4 Marian dogmas is not in complete standing? I do believe in the immaculate conception, but I am still so new to the Catholic faith.Not in good standing. From Munificentissimus Deus:
"45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."
There's probably an anathema in Trent about the Immaculate Conception too, but you get the idea.
Can. 751 "Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and catholic faith"I deviate with one point at least. So am I anathema? Is the guy in the OP correct?
I’m not sure I agree with your premises but I do agree with the conclusion via other premises.
The key term in there is 'willful denial', which also implies deliberation and indeed investigation. Your run of the mill Protestant who only knows what some pastor taught them is not a willful denier. But if someone really studied it and then denies it I might agree with Pius XII. I think those are uncommon people.Not in good standing. From Munificentissimus Deus:
"45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."
There's probably an anathema in Trent about the Immaculate Conception too, but you get the idea.
View attachment 353586
Bummer for me.
Wiggle room on point number 1: Mary physically bore a son, and His name was Jesus. But God the Son did not come into being through Mary. He existed forever before He created everything. You don't have to ba a Catholic to understand this.Instead of being bummed out maybe you could see if you have any wiggle room on any of these teachings of the faith and could get to the point of not being a heretic any more. For example, the first one. Any wiggle room in your position on that where you would be able to stop considering yourself a heretic?
Sorry that Taylor Marshall rubs you wrong. He alternates between being over the top and being right on. Recently he was over the top in considering that pope Francis wasn't actually the pope. He may have settled down about that by now. I donno. He is not an irenic guy. But you do know where you stand. And where he does.
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