Welfare

ZACTAK · Mar 13, 2005

My roommate is currently going to college because of the help of financial aid. He plans on moving off campus, and living in an apartment that is going to be more expensive than what he is paying now. He came back from work tonight and and said he had this big plan of going on welfare in order to pay for his food next year. I told him that it is wrong to do this, and he got all mad because my family is very well off. His argument was that the government is paying for him to eat now, so what is the difference. I haven't gotten to tell him this, because the argument got nasty in other parts related but unrelated to the issue, but the money he gets through financial aid does not come from the same place as where welfare comes from. So, if he was accepted into the program, he could be depriving an individual or a family of their need for food stamps. Do you guys think this is morally right, when he can stay on campus and not have to be on welfare?

hernyaccent · Mar 13, 2005

I think it's horribly wrong. A friend of mine filled out fiinacial aid to say his house only had his dad's social security income. He got the aid for this year but now he only can take one class because he had to pay all the aid money back. It's sad because someone really can't eat in this world and you friends going to get that money without need and soemone else is losing out.

Spyr · Mar 13, 2005

It's unfortunate when a member of society no longer contributes but becomes an unnecessary parasite. Perhaps you should pray to god and maybe he'll be able to tell you if you should report him?

kimber1 · Mar 13, 2005

i think it's wrong too. there are many deserving families who need help desperately and are really trying to do better and make something of themselves and provide for their families but just fall short financially who actually NEED this assistance. and for someone who doesn't need it to take advantage of teh system is indeed morally wrong IMO.

bob135 · Mar 13, 2005

What is "wrong" about abusing the system? Doesn't this just mean that you have a bad system? Even the "people in need" abuse the system. Thanks to the child support welfare programs, more illegitimate children are born, because it is profitable for the woman. Welfare is a nice idea, but this is one example of why it needs serious reform.
If I remember correctly, Welfare is an entitlement progam, just like Social Security, so anyone eligible gets welfare. In that case, he would only be taking money away from other programs, or adding to the national debt.

ZACTAK · Mar 13, 2005

bob135 said:
What is "wrong" about abusing the system? Doesn't this just mean that you have a bad system? Even the "people in need" abuse the system. Thanks to the child support welfare programs, more illegitimate children are born, because it is profitable for the woman. Welfare is a nice idea, but this is one example of why it needs serious reform.
If I remember correctly, Welfare is an entitlement progam, just like Social Security, so anyone eligible gets welfare. In that case, he would only be taking money away from other programs, or adding to the national debt.

The system is bad and does need to be fixed, but just because it is a bad system doesn't mean we should take advantage of it. I for one don't want to pay for a person to be on welfare simply because they don't want to live on campus. Working in retail I have seen people misusing the system, but that doesn't mean it is OK for them to do it.

indra_fanatic · Mar 13, 2005

I only support social-assistance programs of this nature if they provide, in a meaningful way, a means for the recipients to get back on their feet.

The Seeker · Mar 13, 2005

bob135 said:
What is "wrong" about abusing the system? Doesn't this just mean that you have a bad system? Even the "people in need" abuse the system. Thanks to the child support welfare programs, more illegitimate children are born, because it is profitable for the woman. Welfare is a nice idea, but this is one example of why it needs serious reform.

Are you seriously suggesting that some women deliberately choose to have childrent that they can't afford to feed in order to get welfare money? Do you have any idea how assanine that sounds? And if its true, what do you think it says about the prior financial state of these mythical women? How poor, just how desparate, would you have to be to voluntarily become a single mother in a society which is unsympathetic to your plight, just to get a little extra money?

jgarden · Mar 13, 2005

If the government has $150 billion to give away, I'd much rather give it to the welfare of American citizens rather than try to find WMD in Iraq - or whatever the purpose for being there is this week!

Corran · Mar 14, 2005

The Seeker said:
Are you seriously suggesting that some women deliberately choose to have childrent that they can't afford to feed in order to get welfare money? Do you have any idea how assanine that sounds?

That is indeed what happens i know as i have talked to two such women. If you think that is messed up what about a sperm doner having to pay alimony to a lesbian couple that uses his sperm to get pregnant or a mother that uses her daughter to get money from both the goverment and the father by tricking the man into getting her pregnant?

If you do not think that such things happen then you my freind are living in a bubble.

The Seeker said:
And if its true, what do you think it says about the prior financial state of these mythical women? How poor, just how desparate, would you have to be to voluntarily become a single mother in a society which is unsympathetic to your plight, just to get a little extra money?

They are hardly desperate but merely see the amount of money that can be made if all possible benefits are cashed in/used to the maximun.

The Seeker · Mar 14, 2005

Corran said:
That is indeed what happens i know as i have talked to two such women. If you think that is messed up what about a sperm doner having to pay alimony to a lesbian couple that uses his sperm to get pregnant or a mother that uses her daughter to get money from both the goverment and the father by tricking the man into getting her pregnant?

If you do not think that such things happen then you my freind are living in a bubble.

They are hardly desperate but merely see the amount of money that can be made if all possible benefits are cashed in/used to the maximun.

I'm willing to bet cash that at least one of the following is true of you:

Watches Fox "news"
Reads the Daily Mail
Has used the phrase "political correctness gone mad" in conversation without any irony whatsoever

Just a guess.

Corran · Mar 14, 2005

The Seeker said:
I'm willing to bet cash that at least one of the following is true of you:

Watches Fox "news"

Reads the Daily Mail

Has used the phrase "political correctness gone mad" in conversation without any irony whatsoever

Just a guess.

Nope i dont live in the US so the first 2 are out.

As for the phrase "political correctness gone mad" this the first time i have heard that phrase.

How do any of those have anything to do with what i said?

TScott · Mar 14, 2005

A majority of people on public assistance are working people who do not earn enough to make ends meet. We want these people to provide us services, and they should be able to make enough money to live on.

Maynard Keenan · Mar 14, 2005

Any system is and will be abused. But I agree the nature of welfare or any social assistence program should be getting peopel back on their feet. However sometimes some money to tide you over doesn't cut it. Often these peopel are undereducated, would be working in jobs that could hardly support a family, not to mention paying for childcare whiel working. Welfare alone cant cut it. Welfare can be changed to reasses what it should be doing. but other things need to be done whether by government, peopel, society, whatever, so that the underprivileged can succeed.

Phred · Mar 14, 2005

NFSteelers said:
Do you guys think this is morally right, when he can stay on campus and not have to be on welfare?

To get back to the OP... it's wrong. If you manipulate the system by lying or otherwise cheating how can it be justified by thinking the system is at fault? Would you take from the church collection plate because nobody was looking? If you did, would it be someone else's fault???

Stealing from a deeper pocket is still stealing. You don't need to ask God about this... you already know the answer. Now the question is... what do you do about it?

.

bob135 · Mar 15, 2005

NFSteelers said:
The system is bad and does need to be fixed, but just because it is a bad system doesn't mean we should take advantage of it. I for one don't want to pay for a person to be on welfare simply because they don't want to live on campus. Working in retail I have seen people misusing the system, but that doesn't mean it is OK for them to do it.

Well, I guess misusing the system might bring about change faster, so it might end up being a good thing. Can't you extend that argument about wefare to almost anyone? You say you don't want to pay for someone who chooses to live in an apartment. Personally, I'd rather not pay for some woman who had a child when she was 16, or a man who gets $10,000 a year working or $10,000 a year on welfare and opts for the welfare.
Of course, a flawed system doesn't justify exploitation.

The Seeker said:
Are you seriously suggesting that some women deliberately choose to have childrent that they can't afford to feed in order to get welfare money? Do you have any idea how assanine that sounds? And if its true, what do you think it says about the prior financial state of these mythical women? How poor, just how desparate, would you have to be to voluntarily become a single mother in a society which is unsympathetic to your plight, just to get a little extra money?

I really wish it wasn't true...but studies seem to show otherwise:
http://www.children.smartlibrary.org/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=1783

Maynard Keenan said:
Any system is and will be abused. But I agree the nature of welfare or any social assistence program should be getting peopel back on their feet. However sometimes some money to tide you over doesn't cut it. Often these peopel are undereducated, would be working in jobs that could hardly support a family, not to mention paying for childcare whiel working. Welfare alone cant cut it. Welfare can be changed to reasses what it should be doing. but other things need to be done whether by government, peopel, society, whatever, so that the underprivileged can succeed.

What about negative income tax? This gives people in need more money without destroying the incentive to work.

Phred said:
To get back to the OP... it's wrong. If you manipulate the system by lying or otherwise cheating how can it be justified by thinking the system is at fault? Would you take from the church collection plate because nobody was looking? If you did, would it be someone else's fault???

Stealing from a deeper pocket is still stealing. You don't need to ask God about this... you already know the answer. Now the question is... what do you do about it?

I think you are really stretching the definition of stealing here. He is using the system to his advantage, but the government doesn't seem to care. Obviously, if you were taking from the church collection plate and somoeone saw you, this would be morally reprehensible. With welfare, the government is fully aware of your current income, residence, etc. They are choosing to give you the money. It is, after all, theirs to give.

jgarden · Mar 15, 2005

SOCIALISM = welfare for the POOR

CAPITALISM = welfare for the RICH

Nobody was ever told that he/she couldn't become one of Jesus' disciples because they were poor. (Story of the Rich Young Ruler)

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