We Sure Are Good At Messing Up The Trinity

Dixibehr50 said:

This quote is very much heresy on several levels.
Jesus is FULLY God and FULLY (not just part) human.

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The necessity of some logic (or is it spiritual understanding?) continues ...
Would you care to explain why Jesus said His Father was greater than He was?

Folks, let’s call it what it is—heresy, plain and simple.

SPF said:

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

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The Trinity is difficult for us to define in a clear, concrete intellectual sort of way. Many will point to scripture and say, how can He be God if He says this; others will point to scripture that seems to say He is God. After several years of contemplating it, I came to the realization that there was no such question, no dilemma on my part, when He saved me. Accordingly, I believe Jesus is who He said He is, and that being whoever and however He meant it, my attempted definition and understanding of The Trinity aside. Why? The spiritual answer is, because He came into my heart and life in a special, unmistakable way that I’ll never forget. For the intellectual answer, I’ll defer to how the Historian Philip Schaff put it:

“How, in the name of logic, common sense, and experience, could an imposter — that is a deceitful, selfish, depraved man — have invented, and consistently maintained from the beginning to end, the purest and noblest character known in history with the most perfect air of truth and reality? How could He have conceived and successfully carried out a plan of unparalleled beneficence, moral magnitude, and sublimity, and sacrificed His own life for it, in the face of the strongest prejudices of His people and age?”

SPF said:

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Click to expand...

It's heretical and not Orthodox.
Jesus is God. He was not part human but fully human. Fully God and fully human.
It is this that makes Him the One Mediator between God and man, the only One to bridge that gap.

FenderTL5 said:

BC: Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why Jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

It's heretical and not Orthodox.
Jesus is God. He was not part human but fully human. Fully God and fully human.
It is this that makes Him the One Mediator between God and man, the only One to bridge that gap.

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This is all very exciting ... butski, bridging gaps aside ...
Why did Jesus say Father God was greater than He was?
No one yet has explain this ... that of which I already know the answer.

BTW, I'm not saying that Jesus was/is not fully God.
Careful with the double negative ... it might trip you up.

SPF said:

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Click to expand...

According to the statement of faith for this site, it's not a Christian belief.

And yes, to us, heresy.

archer75 said:

According to the statement of faith for this site, it's not a Christian belief. And yes, to us, heresy.

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Okay, but do you really comprehend what I wrote?

Was Jesus stumbling around in the (dry) dirt and (wet) mud ...
in the same league as Father God at that moment in time?

I'm sendin' six-pack of Diet Coke to anyone who can wrap his/her head around this!
(However, you don't have to drink it ... after all, it's sweetened with Aspertame.)

Fu

SPF said:

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Click to expand...

He was fully God, fully man. Anything else is false teaching

SPF said:

I'm honestly not trying to goad you. I wish you would answer the questions I've asked. All I've seen you do is say there are a handful of references in the Bible about the Seven Spirits of God and that they may or may not have something to do with the Godhead. But I don't know what you actually believe about them, I don't know if you believe that actually ARE God as well and that the historical view of the Trinity is so incredibly wrong, I don't know if you believe they are subordinate spirits to the Holy Spirit, I don't know anything.

What do you think? Why are they absent in the baptism of Christ? Why are they absent in our direction for baptism?

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I honestly don't know. I have listed the verses I have tracked down on the subject in an earlier post on this thread. That is all I know. I assume most Christians don't know what to do with God's statement that there are Seven Spirits. Theology is difficult to build on such scant Scripture, so what can I say or do? I can only guess that God has vast riches in store for us, or as I like to put it, He has a vast Ocean...in which we have only dabbled our toes.

BCsenior said:

This is all very exciting ... butski, bridging gaps aside ...
Why did Jesus say Father God was greater than He was?

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Jesus was fully man; as a man, and a Jew, he prayed to God. Paul says that Jesus did not consider equality with God as something to be grasped, Philippians 2:6 - meaning that although he was God, he did not go around misusing his powers, demanding that folk worship him and boasting that he was better than anybody else.

But the Jews believed he claimed to be God, John 5:18, John 8:58-59, John 10:33; and they crucified him for it, John 19:7.
John believed him to be God, John 1:1-2, so did Thomas, John 20:28.
Jesus said that he and the Father were one, John 10:30, and that he had shared God's glory before the world began, John 17:5.

Seems this "Heresy" is getting tossed around based on ones personal belief. I am surprised some verse are not being talked about at all here. He was human, a man. Had to be.. and He was spotless.. sinless had to be. How this started.. by one... by one it was finished. I love this song playing now.. older.. has nothing to do with this but... "Hes all you need.. Steve Camp"..

Simple verses like.. talking about testing spirits.. "Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God". You right now are in the flesh. Jesus had to be baptized.. then what happen? The dove? This goes back to the OT. The reason He had to be man.. and sinless. The only way this would work. We get stuck .. I do.. on "if you seen me you seen the Father". We look at that through human eyes..mans understanding. Who do you think talked to Moshe (Moses)? Or Abraham? You really believe GOD got up and came here? Gods a spirit.

Joshua.. sees someone standing with a sword "Are you for us or for our enemies?" "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?" "Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so."

You never worship angels. This was no angel..was it Christ.. the word says He was not one you like to look at. "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him." Yet after He rose walking with two.. something was different Praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS!...haha so just wow.. at the same time typing this "Arise My Love..newsong" Playing. About Christ coming out of the grave..

Guys...were talking about about a GOD and were here on this earth. Jesus is the only door to the Father. I believe they are 100% just one....yet 100% all three. Not like we say me and my wife are one. They really are ONE! Yet three. Even Satan didn't know who He was. Offering this GOD something of this world vs all He created? lol

It scares me that this is an increasingly common view among people who are supposedly in the Church...

Blade said:

I believe they are 100% just one....yet 100% all three.
Not like we say me and my wife are one. They really are ONE! Yet three.

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IMO, it is a common belief that They were One in unity of purpose, etc. etc.

Strong in Him said:

BC: Why did Jesus say Father God was greater than He was?
Jesus was fully man; as a man, and a Jew, he prayed to God. Paul says that Jesus did not consider equality with God as something to be grasped, Philippians 2:6 - meaning that although he was God, he did not go around misusing his powers, demanding that folk worship him and boasting that he was better than anybody else. But the Jews believed he claimed to be God, John 5:18, John 8:58-59, John 10:33; and they crucified him for it, John 19:7. John believed him to be God, John 1:1-2, so did Thomas, John 20:28. Jesus said that he and the Father were one, John 10:30, and that he had shared God's glory before the world began, John 17:5.

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Another question (maybe until everyone understands) ...
How could Someone stumbling around on earth consider Himself to be equal to Father God?

Now, the Word who came down from heaven was an equal Member of the Trinity,
but Jesus really did NOT consider Himself (at that time) to be equal to the Father.
This is why Jesus said the Father was greater than He was!
No One residing in a human body can consider Himself as being equal to Father God.

Kate30 said:

It’s a verse the Jehovah witnesses like to use very much. God the Son did give all power and authority to God the Father while taking on the role of a servant to fulfil redemption for us while here apon earth. CHrist said the Father is greater than I. In authority yes. The Father is better than I. No. Our prime minister or your president is in greater authority than you or me . But is he better than me. No. Being in greater authority does not make you more superior. That is where the misunderstanding occurs I think.

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I printed out the following and gave it to our local JW members who came calling often since I was Christian and liked to read the Bible (NASB) with them. Parts were different, but it didn't matter until I gave them the creed. They stopped coming around and I even considered one a friend. To them Jesus is Michael the archangel.



ETA: Jesus was fully human and fully God at the same time. He had this nature about him which we cannot fully understand. Also, Jesus became the perfect human that Adam was supposed to be.

jamesbond007 said:

I printed out the following and gave it to our local JW members ...
To them Jesus is Michael the archangel.

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Hey Jamesey,
I'm guessing you know what probably is their biggest problem ...
Brooklyn changed John 1:1 to say ... Jesus was a God.
And there isn't even the indefinite article "a" in the Greek language!

Whenever this comes up I find it helpful to post either the Athanasian Creed or the Chalcedonian Creed.
The Chalcedonian Definition from the fourth Ecumenical council (451) convened to address this exact subject.

We, then, following the holy fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with the Father according to the Godhead and consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only-begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ; as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the creed of the holy fathers has handed down to us.

Jackson, G. A. (1883). The Post-Nicene Greek Fathers. (G. P. Fisher, Ed.) (p. 24). New York: D. Appleton and Company.

I think Jesus was confirming the Trinity.

In the conversation about the father being greater,Jesus is talking about his human identity, so he is below the father or the father is greater than Jesus

''Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.''

Where as earlier in his ministry Jesus talks with the pharisees about his divine nature and reveals he is co-equal to the father:

''24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.''

So his deity side is equal to the father and human side is below the father.

That's how I understand it anyway.

SPF said:

I couldn't help but notice that a certain poster in the recently closed thread concerning OSAS, made this comment that nobody else seemed to notice:

"Technically, Jesus was not God ... not in the same league as Father God
because He was part human ... Jesus was the God-man.
That's why jesus said His Father was greater than He was!"

What do you think of this quote? Is it accurate? Is it heresy?

Click to expand...

Utter heresy