We Created Creationism

If you know where we came from and have undeniable proof, by all means provide us with it.

All you did was say i was wrong, try to tear down some of my points.......and contributed nothing to any of my points, negatively or positively. Give me the answers that i don't like hearing. I at least want to be humiliated publicly for ignoring the solid facts, can't stand to have people scoff at me behind my back

So go ahead and search on google real quick for a counter point, i'll be waiting. You might want to try yahoo as well, sometimes google gives links to sites with arbitrary info.

*i apologize for being smug, but when i typed in speciation, your link was in the top 4 results.*

ponderingnwandering said:

So go ahead and search on google real quick for a counter point, i'll be waiting. You might want to try yahoo as well, sometimes google gives links to sites with arbitrary info.

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Or you could read my past replies in this thread where I already gave evidence of evolution.

Which evolution are you wanting to prove?

First, I watched your linked video on the eight fundamental falsehood of creationism.......could i have some links to evidence supporting what the video claimed? They dropped a lot of info and "stats prove", and i want to make sure that it all checks out.

Second, I didn't really find anything in the video that convinced me either way that creationism is real or false. There are a lot of good points being brought up in favor of evolution, and i would agree that to a degree (meaning that i believe its somewhat true) evolution happens. It has to happen. I just don't think it is as radical as a lot of evolutionists would make it out to be. If by mutations you mean people naturally adapting to their surroundings, then yeah i would agree.

Third, the question of where we came from still lingers in the air. Ok, let's assume we have a common ancestor.......where did that common ancestor come from, and why is there so much variation in all living things? What came before our common ancestor? It had to have had a beginning as well. Did it come out of nothing, did it come out of a big bang, is there any intelligent design or is it completely random that we're here? There are a LOT more questions being brought up. I really don't mean to come across as not even giving the theory a chance, i just have to wonder what the answers are for life as we know it from that view point.

Where did the ring begin?

I also have one last random question. This isn't so much related to the creationism/evolution debate, but i want to have your opinion regardless. It's not a trick question, it is what it is.

Let's say that two people, in two different locations, are minding their own business one weekend. They are fairly good friends, but haven't really talked to one another in a while. Person number one is sitting at home, Person number two is driving to visit a loved one in another state. While person number one is sitting at home, she thinks she hears a voice calling her name. It is quiet, but persistent, almost like her conscience but not her words. The voice tells her that a friend of hers, person number two, is in danger. Person one prays for person two to be safe.

When they meet up at work the following monday, person number two tells person number one about how he was in a car accident. Person two also goes on to say he heard a voice telling him to pull over and that everything would be okay. Person two did end up in a car accident, but had suffered no damage of any sort, not even whiplash or minor cuts. The car, on the other hand, was completely totaled.

My question, can this happen in real life? Can two people, who have no idea what the other one is doing, hear a voice and know that the other person will be in an accident? If it can't, how can it be explained, or is there nothing to explain there?

Like i said, it is not a trick question, it simply is just a question. You can pm the answer if need be, or answer here if you like.

You know, the world has given us Nazis, Communists, KKKs, Mafioso, Islamisists, and who knows what else.

It is more then a little eccentric, to be perpetually enraged at creationists, don't you know.

People with a strong desire to disprove creationism are almost always those who also harbor personal insecurity concerning their own non-creationist beliefs and combat creationism/Christianity in an effort to validate themselves. People who have no doubt concerning something have no reason to lash out at those who disagree concerning the same.

Isambard said:

Yes it can, here is a list
Observed Instances of Speciation

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What???? A worm changed into a rabbit and still bred as a rabbit??? You should become Dawkins apprentice mate!!! All the evolution docos I've seen have never addressed that one!!!

I am dissing you mate, but hey, here's my final say on this subject ...

YouTube - Evolution Redefined

CoffeeAddictTH said:

Which evolution are you wanting to prove?

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There is only one sort as far as I am aware of (when speaking about the sciences).

ponderingnwandering said:

First, I watched your linked video on the eight fundamental falsehood of creationism.......could i have some links to evidence supporting what the video claimed? They dropped a lot of info and "stats prove", and i want to make sure that it all checks out.

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Much of is found in scientific journals. I would recommend going through the basics found in wiki or talk origins first though the academic material is pretty heavy with scientific jargon.

ponderingnwandering said:

Second, I didn't really find anything in the video that convinced me either way that creationism is real or false. There are a lot of good points being brought up in favor of evolution, and i would agree that to a degree (meaning that i believe its somewhat true) evolution happens. It has to happen. I just don't think it is as radical as a lot of evolutionists would make it out to be. If by mutations you mean people naturally adapting to their surroundings, then yeah i would agree.

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Check out his other videos. Also, check out DonExodus2, Potholer51 and Thunderf00t's channels. Also big help for someone sitting on the fence as they take the time to debunk a lot of Creationist claims.

ponderingnwandering said:

Third, the question of where we came from still lingers in the air. Ok, let's assume we have a common ancestor.......where did that common ancestor come from, and why is there so much variation in all living things? What came before our common ancestor? It had to have had a beginning as well. Did it come out of nothing, did it come out of a big bang, is there any intelligent design or is it completely random that we're here? There are a LOT more questions being brought up. I really don't mean to come across as not even giving the theory a chance, i just have to wonder what the answers are for life as we know it from that view point.

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A fair question, but one best asked with a bigger audience. I suggest going over to the Science subforum of CF as your questions are answered regularly there.

ponderingnwandering said:

Where did the ring begin?

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A question of semantics needs to be answered first. What do you mean by 'begin'?

ponderingnwandering said:

I also have one last random question. This isn't so much related to the creationism/evolution debate, but i want to have your opinion regardless. It's not a trick question, it is what it is.

Let's say that two people, in two different locations, are minding their own business one weekend. They are fairly good friends, but haven't really talked to one another in a while. Person number one is sitting at home, Person number two is driving to visit a loved one in another state. While person number one is sitting at home, she thinks she hears a voice calling her name. It is quiet, but persistent, almost like her conscience but not her words. The voice tells her that a friend of hers, person number two, is in danger. Person one prays for person two to be safe.

When they meet up at work the following monday, person number two tells person number one about how he was in a car accident. Person two also goes on to say he heard a voice telling him to pull over and that everything would be okay. Person two did end up in a car accident, but had suffered no damage of any sort, not even whiplash or minor cuts. The car, on the other hand, was completely totaled.

My question, can this happen in real life? Can two people, who have no idea what the other one is doing, hear a voice and know that the other person will be in an accident? If it can't, how can it be explained, or is there nothing to explain there?

Like i said, it is not a trick question, it simply is just a question. You can pm the answer if need be, or answer here if you like.

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Sure, why not? Low probablity events have a greater chance of occuring the more times something happens. with ~8billion humans interacting with each other every day, low probability events start to become ever more common.

jason taylor said:

You know, the world has given us Nazis, Communists, KKKs, Mafioso, Islamisists, and who knows what else.

It is more then a little eccentric, to be perpetually enraged at creationists, don't you know.

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Not to nitpick, but Nazis, Klansmen, and Islamists are all Creationists. An irrelevant point I know, just thought it would be interesting. That said, folks like myself would be far less "perpetually enraged" by Creationists if they stopped trying to break the separation of church and state by trying to get the public schools to teach religion.

Joshua Howard said:

People with a strong desire to disprove creationism are almost always those who also harbor personal insecurity concerning their own non-creationist beliefs and combat creationism/Christianity in an effort to validate themselves. People who have no doubt concerning something have no reason to lash out at those who disagree concerning the same.

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Yes, strong desire to disprove creationism has to do with personal insecurities. The fact that Creationists themselves keep trying to sabotage the scientific method itself to push religion into the political realm has nothing to do with it *rolls eyes*.

TanteBelle said:

What???? A worm changed into a rabbit and still bred as a rabbit??? You should become Dawkins apprentice mate!!! All the evolution docos I've seen have never addressed that one!!!

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You asked for evidence I speciation. I gave it. Its not my fault you're completely oblivious to the definition of speciation.

TanteBelle said:

I am dissing you mate, but hey, here's my final say on this subject ...

YouTube - Evolution Redefined

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And my response to the creators of that video is as follows.
YouTube - You fail

Isambard said:

There is only one sort as far as I am aware of (when speaking about the sciences).

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Actually, there are about 7 different explanations for the meaning of 'evolution' but only 1 definition fits with the Bible (ie; genetic changes within a species). Kent Hovind does bring up the different definitions .... I know, I know, he's in jail! But that doesn't get rid of the fact that he brings up some very important questions and explanations.

You asked for evidence I speciation. I gave it. Its not my fault you're completely oblivious to the definition of speciation.

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Actually, you are right! I have no idea what you are getting at now. Evolution is about one 'species' evolving into another.

And my response to the creators of that video is as follows.

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LOL! But in that vid, they asked for God to have mercy on their soul .... you don't believe in God, therefore which one of us is to say that!???? We shall agree to disagree .... or disagree to agree, take yer pick mate!!!

@isambard

okay, instead of a ring, let's say you're in a classroom. the teacher offers to demonstrate the ring theory by asking you to step out of the classroom. the teacher then draws a circle on the board. The teacher then asks you to step back in. He/She then asks you to point to the place where he/she began drawing the circle.

That's more or less the same thing i was asking with where the ring began.

Also, as far as my random question goes, you say that it could happen, albeit have a low probability of happening. What would cause that to happen?
There are only a few possibilities i can even consider for that happening. Feel free to add another possibility if you come up with one

1. The two people are psychic
2. The two people did indeed talk to God or some other god who saved the person in the car.
3. Person one happened to know that person two was going to visit that person out of state and imagined talking to God. Person two happened to believe in God as well and imagined that they were talking to God right before the accident happened. It was mere coincidence, and that they were really just talking to themselves, within the same time frame without ever knowing about the other's situation. In short the two accounts just happened to match each other.

Option 1 seems to be unlikely, but so would option 2 to anyone who isn't a Christian.

Option 3 would be the most rational.........but it lacks something; Context.

What would cause person one to worry about person two's safety if person one had no real reason to be concerned for person two? Even assuming that person one is the kind of person that panics over the most trivial of things, why would it be that they imagined praying to God for their safety over this one instance(keep in mind person one and two haven't been talking in a while.), and that during this one instance, person two imagined hearing a voice telling them to pull over?

Rationally, it would seem to convenient for my tastes. Not to say that that couldn't have been the case, but it just seems like too many random facts would fall perfectly into place there.

EDIT:

I do have one more question. And this question will not affect the argument positively or negatively.
What do you believes happens when you die?

If i may be brazen here, i'd say that you believe we just return to the earth, we pass on and that's that.
How do you plan to live your life believing this? I mean what do you plan to do if you know that you finite and will not be around forever?

It's not so much a question to bully you into admitting your "view is pessimistic" as it is one to see what an atheist strives to do with his life.

Christians argue that God is real because we believe that there is something after we die, and that we want as many people as possible to come to know Him before they die. We believe that those who deny Christ will get exactly what they asked for, implicitly or explicitly.......eternal separation from God.

We argue about these things because we believe we are preparing for something greater and we honestly think that people in danger of going to hell. I'd say most of us have this viewpoint, regardless of how our practices may differ.

Why does an atheist argue about these things? Obviously because they believe people are being duped or that they are making this up and would want to quell such an irrational belief....but if life is finite, why continue to argue these points? Why not just write us off as delusional and move on to make the most of your life?

I think a major reason would be that a lot of religions twist people's lives and hurt them......but look at the teachings of Christianity. There are far more harmful religions that TEACH(not just the people acting on their own whims to "defend or spread" their faith) practices of killing one another if they don't believe or to shun away those that are not worthy of their god's approval.

It's not the teachings in Christianity that are hurting people, its people fighting over whether or not they're right in trivial arguments about things they cannot possibly know for sure, nor that matter in the long scheme of things. It's a belief for a reason. I also have enough confidence in God to think that he would work in that person's life and let Himself be known to them if they let Him.

I say all that to say this; what is your mission in coming here to prove creationism wrong? Let's assume that you do convince some people here that creationism is indeed just a fabrication of our imaginations.......what do you do from there?

A lot of these questions i'd prefer to be left rhetorical as they are very uncomfortable and even could be used to ask christians the same thing; "If you convince a few people that God is real and they accept Christ, where do you go from there? What's it to ya?"

The only difference here is that there is something being gained on our end as we believe we helped someone come to know God and accept Him. That also means we believe that they will not perish once their body gives out and they die.

Now that i've got that tangent out of the way, let us continue.

ponderingnwandering said:

@isambard

okay, instead of a ring, let's say you're in a classroom. the teacher offers to demonstrate the ring theory by asking you to step out of the classroom. the teacher then draws a circle on the board. The teacher then asks you to step back in. He/She then asks you to point to the place where he/she began drawing the circle.

That's more or less the same thing i was asking with where the ring began.

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I would ask the other students to tell me where the ring began. Simple. I still don't see what this has to do with creationism/evolution.

ponderingnwandering said:

Also, as far as my random question goes, you say that it could happen, albeit have a low probability of happening. What would cause that to happen?
There are only a few possibilities i can even consider for that happening. Feel free to add another possibility if you come up with one

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False dichotomy. Other alternatives are that the people unconsciously added to the story, it was coincidence, or the story itself was invented. Many other variations gives even more alternatives. Don't why you just assumed the supernatural.
This might help you
YouTube - Open-mindedness

ponderingnwandering said:

I do have one more question. And this question will not affect the argument positively or negatively.
What do you believes happens when you die?

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You decompose.

ponderingnwandering said:

If i may be brazen here, i'd say that you believe we just return to the earth, we pass on and that's that.
How do you plan to live your life believing this? I mean what do you plan to do if you know that you finite and will not be around forever?

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Enjoy myself.

ponderingnwandering said:

Christians argue that God is real because we believe that there is something after we die, and that we want as many people as possible to come to know Him before they die. We believe that those who deny Christ will get exactly what they asked for, implicitly or explicitly.......eternal separation from God.

We argue about these things because we believe we are preparing for something greater and we honestly think that people in danger of going to hell. I'd say most of us have this viewpoint, regardless of how our practices may differ.

Why does an atheist argue about these things? Obviously because they believe people are being duped or that they are making this up and would want to quell such an irrational belief....but if life is finite, why continue to argue these points? Why not just write us off as delusional and move on to make the most of your life?

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Because unrestrained religion left to its own devices typically leads to bad things.

ponderingnwandering said:

It's not the teachings in Christianity that are hurting people, its people fighting over whether or not they're right in trivial arguments about things they cannot possibly know for sure, nor that matter in the long scheme of things.

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I would disagree. Read some Nietzsche for more details.

ponderingnwandering said:

I say all that to say this; what is your mission in coming here to prove creationism wrong? Let's assume that you do convince some people here that creationism is indeed just a fabrication of our imaginations.......what do you do from there?

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My "mission" was to correct misinformation. As for what I do from there? Continue to do what I always do, enjoy myself.

Well i can't argue with that logic.....but that's assuming there are other students in the classroom, assuming you're not alone with the teacher talking.

As far as my random story goes, let's make things more interesting. That actually happened to me, that happening is as valid as i am a person. At the time, I hated God, wanted nothing to do with Him.

One could argue that it was the culmination of me wanting to reconnect with my faith deep down that lead to this coincidence....but it also happened at the exact time that my friend really was in a car accident and claimed to have heard a voice telling her to pull over and everything would be okay. Keep in mind I hadn't talked to her for a good while, and i happened to casually overhear about her going to visit her sister while she was talking to some friend of hers. While a viable alternative, it wouldn't have been a good enough motive on its own for me to fabricate God talking to me.

I'm very interested in the other alternatives to what could have happened, after all it was a huge moment in my life that ultimately would lead to the reason I'm here. It wasn't just that one moment that lead to me start talking to God again, but it is one of the main reasons.

The only stipulation i have is that it has to make sense within the context of the situation.

Edit: It got pretty quiet in here >_>

Isambard said:

YouTube - Open-mindedness

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Haha! That vid is so not honest about the way of thinking between evolutionists and believers! .... wait, I'm being close-minded!!!

TanteBelle said:

Haha! That vid is so not honest about the way of thinking between evolutionists and believers!

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How so?

Inept said:

How so?

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We can turn that argument on you folks. Creation does fit science and the laws of science but you folks don't think so. You think that your explanation for the world fits science and the laws of science and we folks don't think so. Open mindedness isn't the issue here. I've read a lot of 'scientific evidence' for evolution with a very open mind but I don't agree with it. I've read a lot of scientific evidence for creation; a lot I agree with, some things I honestly think are so far stretched in an attempt to 'prove' creation. It comes down to God as I put in my previous post. If I can't convince you on God, I can't convince you on creation. You can not convince me that God doesn't exist (not because I'm close minded and not because I jump to 'supernatural' explanations for life, but I use to believe that God didn't exist) therefore you won't be able to convince me on evolution. It's unfair for someone to say that 'Because you don't believe what I believe, you are a stubborn minded, proud person!' (pride is the empitome of false humility and if someone can't have the slightest doubt that they could be wrong, then they are a very very proud person). I could be wrong about God! Hey, I'm not God and sure don't have all knowledge of the universe! Neither do you! I can only say that you are wrong because of what I personally believe. You can only say that I am wrong based upon what you personally believe. You don't have all knowledge of the universe both the natural and the supernatural and neither do I! Therefore I will never be able to say with 100% certainty that you are wrong and I am right and vise versa!

TanteBelle said:

Creation does fit science and the laws of science......... If I can't convince you on God, I can't convince you on creation

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If a theory necessitates the existence of a God, it would be very hard to imagine that it can be scientifically tested. But, let's hear how you can fit Creation into a scientific hypothesis that can be tested and falsified.

(I'll give you a hint, even some leading Creationists just flat out admit it's not scientific)

What is science, and what qualifies as scientific?

Depends on who you ask. One thing is certain though, it isn't truth, it merely questions it.

Creationism amuses me deeply.

Don't worry, so does Darwin's thoery of evolution

You gotta start somewhere, right? =p

ponderingnwandering said:

What is science, and what qualifies as scientific?

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Falsifiable hypotheses based on observation of physical phenomena. (more or less)

ponderingwandering said:

Depends on who you ask. One thing is certain though, it isn't truth, it merely questions it.

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No, it doesn't "depend on who you ask".


Also - just to remark on your story, that's complete nonsense. First off, anyone who thinks about anyone worries about their safety. Ask any parent, they constantly worry about their children's safety. Just because one of those worries was true doesn't mean God spoke to you.

Furthermore, to seriously believe that the creator of the universe talked to you to tell you that your friend had been in a car crash is absolutely mind-boggling (and incredibly self-important). This same creator, in your eyes, lets hundreds of thousands of Africans die a day from genocidal maniacs who feel that human trafficking and drug-pushing are viable career paths. Why not send one of them a friendly message that an angry gang of warlords is coming to rape their wives, dismember their children, and cart them off to a distant land?