We are all being deceived.

Albion · Jun 7, 2008

Several points that need to be made:

1. If rock throwing children were the whole of the problem (as opposed to the firing of thousands of rockets into Israel and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians), you might have something of an argument. Of course, it isn't.

2. Some Christians do support Israel on the basis of their understanding of the Old Testament, but many American Christians support her essentially because she is a political ally, a democracy, etc., unlike any other nation in the region.

And, to be sure, many sympathize with a nation that wants to live in peace being constanly beset by those neighbors who have vowed to kill every one of her citizens. We learned this lesson in World War II and would prefer, to say the least, that it not happen again.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 7, 2008

youdahman said:
How about we go with neither common sense or emotions and stick with the bible,,,,,,,,,,

Blasphemer!!! Didn't ya know we are not allowed to just stick with the Bible! Be gone from here

[You must spread some reputation around before giving it to youdahman again!]

youdahman · Jun 7, 2008

Albion said:
Several points that need to be made:

1. If rock throwing children were the whole of the problem (as opposed to the firing of thousands of rockets into Israel and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians), you might have something of an argument. Of course, it isn't.

2. Some Christians do support Israel on the basis of their understanding of the Old Testament, but many American Christians support her essentially because she is a political ally, a democracy, etc., unlike any other nation in the region.

And, to be sure, many sympathize with a nation that wants to live in peace being constanly beset by those neighbors who have vowed to kill every one of her citizens. We learned this lesson in World War II and would prefer, to say the least, that it not happen again.

Right, but perhaps we should consider exactly why these people are doing the things they are doing. There was never a problem before until recently right?

There are even people coming out telling them exactly what we don't want to hear, that our actions in the region is why the anti american and anti jewish sentiment is so strong.

If you watch the video you can understand both sides, and perhaps you wouldn't even have made this post.

edit: to adress some of the issues.
1. Did you watch the video?
2. You think, that perhaps, the reason things like 9/11 happened was because of our unwavering support for Israel? Would we be better off as a country if we were impartial instead? I think the fact, among other things, that many Christians believe in the prophecies of Israel is why we support them so strongly. We are a sovereign nation, if you look at the writings of our forefathers, they tell us not to entangle with worldy affairs. Look at Washington's farewell address, he speaks adamantly about it.

Carey · Jun 8, 2008

youdahman said:
How about we go with neither common sense or emotions and stick with the bible

Galatians 3:29 (Whole Chapter)
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What promise is he talking about?

The promise of Salvation.

He is talking about the promise of the City once it descends onto Jerusalem after Jesus returns. But that does not nulify the promise of the land of Canaan too Abrahams Genetic descendents.

Romans 4:16 (Whole Chapter)
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

NOTICE, it was the faith of ABRAHAM, not his blood lineage, that was important to God concerning his promise.

That is right because of Abrahams faith his genetic heirs recieved the promise of the land of Canaan everlasting and they were not required to have that faith because they were and are his genetic decenedents.

But for those of us who are not his genetic decendents and his genetic decendents both need faith if we want to recieve the SEPERATE COVENANT PROMISE of SALVATION

Acts 3:25 (Whole Chapter)
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

again, correlating with Galatians 3:29 about Abraham's seed who includes Spiritual Israel.

HOW? THROUGH THE FAITH OF Abraham, not his blood. That faith points directly to Jesus Christ.

So while you look at the physical and genetic things the truth is we should be looking at what the bible emphasizes, the fruits of the spirit.

No we should look at the truth and not false doctrine.

Here is what the Bible plainly says.

It says Because of Abrahams faith his genetic heirs would have the land of canaan everlasting.

The Bible also says if any of us including Abrahams genetic heirs do not have faith we will not recieve the KIngdom when it comes. The genetic heirs of Abraham will always have their land of Canaan until Jesus returns
but that does not garauntee them Heaven.

So understand this is not a lie.

If you want to go look at the bazillion posts I have made on this topic with all the perinent verses from the Bible have at it.

I already went through this with a few other confused and decieved bro's and sis's on this site. I don't have the time any more to go through it.

But if you have been given understanding then you can read this and know what you are saying is not wrong it is only half right.

Isaiah 60

The Glory of Zion

This started when Jesus was born
1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.

2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.

This will happen after Jesus returns
3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

This started in 1948 AND IS STILL IN THE PROCESS TODAY
4 "Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
and your daughters are carried on the arm.
5 Then you will look and be radiant,
your heart will throb and swell with joy;
the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
to you the riches of the nations will come.

This has started but all from Sheba will not prause the Lord until he returns and conquers 6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the LORD.

This is future tense for us today because the Temple has not yet been rebuilt but Israel already has the Blueprints and plans to rebuild it.

7 All Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.

This is the Israeli airforce
8 "Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

This started in 1948 and is still in the process to this day.
9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, [a]
bringing your sons from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.

This started in 1948 and is still in the process today.He was angry because of Pagn worship and non circumcision. They stopped pagan worship and started circumcsing again which was the only prerequisit for them having their land of Canaan because of ABRahame faith not theirs.
10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.

This has not YET happened but is going to in the near future. 11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations
their kings led in triumphal procession.

Some nations like PALESTINE and HITLERS REGIME and SADDAMS REGIME
have already experienced this and more will in our immediate future.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.

This will probably be the next prophecy fulfilled in your lifetime you will see with your own eyes. Watch and behold the power of Yahweh the Father.
13 "The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the pine, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn the place of my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place of my feet.

This is in the near future as well
14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the LORD,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This is also future rense after Jesus returns.
15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.

This started happening in 1948 and is still going on today.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

This started happening in 1948 but is not yet totally fulfilled.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and righteousness your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end. 21 Then will all your people be righteous
and they will possess the land forever.
They are the shoot I have planted,
the work of my hands,
for the display of my splendor.

Swiftly to God is different than swiftly to man. This is all in the process and much has happened since 1948 proving might Father Yahweh and his word the Bible is true for this last generation before Jesus ( Yeshua ) returns.
22 The least of you will become a thousand,
the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the LORD;
in its time I will do this swiftly."

fritz300 · Jun 8, 2008

Unfortunately, many Christian's will fall to the spirit of anti-semitism in these last days.

Do you not understand that these things must happen before Judah will see their error.. before Judah reunites with Ephraim?

Let's stick to the Scriptures, and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as well as our Judean brothers currently in the Land--and not give way to our emotions and vain imaginations.

Regards,
Zak

Bible2 · Jun 8, 2008

youdahman posted in message #1:

Christians are being deceived. There is nothing Godly
going on in the Jewish State.

Some Christians are being only partly deceived, for
there is something Godly going on in the Jewish
State. There are many churches in the state of
Israel, and they include Jewish Christians as well
as Gentile Christians, including Arab Christians.
And there are many Christians in Israel who are
preaching the Gospel to the unbelieving Jews there
every day, just as many Christians did in Israel in
the first century:

Romans 1:16 ...For I am not ashamed of the gospel of
Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to
every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also
to the Greek.

But, there is also something unGodly going on in the
Jewish State, for there are some unbelieving
(especially Orthodox) Jews in Israel who are burning
New Testaments and working against the preaching of
the Gospel in Israel, just as many unbelieving Jews
did in Israel in the first century:

1 Thessalonians 2:14 ...For ye, brethren, became
followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are
in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like
things of your own countrymen, even as they have of
the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own
prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not
God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they
might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the
wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Some of the unbelieving Jews in Israel, even though
they are currently enemies of the Gospel, are still
elected by God to all be saved at some time in the
future, including at the second coming:

Romans 11:25 ...For I would not, brethren, that ye
should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be
wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall
take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for
your sakes: but as touching the election, they are
beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without
repentance.

But some of the unbelieving Jews in Israel, just as
elsewhere in the world (and just as most unbelieving
Gentiles) have not been elected by God to be saved in
the future, and so they are truly of Satan and the
spirit of antichrist:

1 John 2:22 ...Who is a liar but he that denieth that
Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth
the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the
Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the
Father also.

1 John 4:3 ...every spirit that confesseth not that
Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and
this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have
heard that it should come; and even now already is
it in the world.

John 8:39 ...They answered and said unto him, Abraham
is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were
Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told
you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did
not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to
him, We be not born of fornication; we have one
Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye
would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from
God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because
ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of
your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the
beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there
is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he
speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father
of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say
the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye
therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Revelation 2:9 ...I know the blasphemy of them which
say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue
of Satan.

There's no way for us to know which unbelieving Jews
(or which unbelieving Gentiles) are the children of
Satan and which are of God, elected by God to be
saved at sometime in the future, so we need to keep
preaching the Gospel to all of them, yet without any
false, namby-pamby ideas that they (especially some
ultra-Orthodox Jews) won't do every kind of evil to
us Christians in the future, even murder us in cold
blood, without the least tinge of conscience on their
part, just as they did in the first century:

John 16:2 ...They shall put you out of the synagogues:
yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will
think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because
they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the
time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of
them.

youdahman posted in message #1:

... the Jewish State. There is an illegal occupation
and millions of people are under a foreign miliatary
dictatorship.

The Jewish occupation of most of Israel isn't illegal,
but is in accordance with the November, 1947 U.N.
Resolution which legally established the Jewish State
in much of Palestine.

Those parts of Palestine which weren't legally given
to Israel by the U.N. were captured by Israel in its
self-defense when the Arab nations illegally attacked
Israel in 1948 and again in 1956 and again in 1967,
always trying to illegally "throw Israel into the
sea".

Those parts of Israel which were legally given to
Israel by the U.N. aren't under a foreign military
dictatorship but are under a Jewish and Arab
democracy ruled by Jewish and Arab members of the
Knesset (the Parliament of Israel) and the Israeli
Prime Minister and President, who are elected by not
only the Jewish citizens of Israel, but also by its
Arab citizens.

Gaza is not occupied by any foreign military
dictatorship, but is ruled by the democratically-
elected Hamas, a Palestinian political party which
has illegally vowed to destroy by terroristic means
even the U.N.-established state of Israel.

Israel is basically in a low-level state of war with
Hamas, whereby Hamas is sending missiles and suicide
bombers into the the U.N.-established state of Israel
while Israel is striking back militarily against
Hamas leaders in Gaza and sites in Gaza which are
involved in the terroristic attacks against Israel.

Not all of the counter-attacks by Israel should be
unconditionally supported, as some of them involve the
intentional targeting of innocent civilians which
Israel considers to be "unfortunate collateral
damage" when civilians, even babies, are physically
surrounding a terrorist leader or physically dwelling
in a house or other site where terrorist missiles are
being shot at innocent civilians in Israel.

But Israel is in a bind, because if it forswears all
"attacks from the sky" because of the horrible toll
they take of innocent civilian life, the only other
option is to combat the terrorists in Gaza and the
West Bank by solely-police (i.e. SWAT) methods, which
do not make attacks on criminals which will result
in the deaths of innocent civilians. But in order to
identify, corner, and arrest all of the terrorists in
Gaza and the West Bank, the Palestinian police forces
there would have to be both willing and able to defeat
them, and most of the time they aren't willing, and
the few times they are willing they usually aren't
able to defeat them because the terrorists have better
firepower, tactics, and courage.

This is why Israel has felt compelled to remain in
overall military control of the West Bank, and why it
has militarily invaded Gaza repeatedly in the past:
it's the only way to squelch flurries of terrorist
attacks against Israel from the West Bank and Gaza.

The West Bank is not occupied by any foreign military
dictatorship, but is only partly occupied by the
Israeli Defense Forces and by Jewish civilians, who
are all democratically ruled by the Israeli Parliament
(Knesset) and the Prime Minister and the President of
Israel. Israel is occupying only key parts of the West
Bank, and only in self-defense, as there are many
Palestinian terrorists who operate out of the West
Bank and who attack innocent Jewish civilians in the
West Bank and in the U.N.-established parts of Israel.
Israel would be willing to remove some of its military
forces in the West Bank, and some of the Jewish
civilian settlements in the West Bank, if it could
get an assurance, and if it could see in practice over
a period of some months, that no more terrorist
attacks will be waged by the Palestinians in the West
Bank against the Jews in the West Bank and in the
U.N.-established parts of Israel.

It's the terroristic Palestinians in the West Bank and
Gaza who are preventing the peaceful Palestinian
majority in the West Bank and Gaza from obtaining a
full-fledged Palestinian state in the West Bank and
Gaza which would enjoy a full economic relationship
with Israel and so share in its wealth and economic
development and growth.

It's the terroristic Palestinians in the West Bank and
Gaza who are keeping their people economically cut
off from thriving Israel as they are continuing to put
Israel in such fear that it feels it must continue to
build high walls and restrict any Palestinian movements
into Israel, even by workers who enjoy good jobs in
Israel or who are bringing goods to sell in Israel, as
terrorists hide among them to bring bombs into Israel
to detonate in markets and buses and kill as many
innocent Jewish civilians as they can.

If only the Palestinians would make peace with Israel
and get rid of their terrorists once and for all they
would see how much economic benefit they will derive
by their trade in goods and workers with Israel, and
by Israel's investment in Palestinian companies in
Gaza and the West Bank.

It's the terroristic Palestinians in the West Bank
and Gaza who are preventing the peaceful Palestinian
majority from escaping from the poverty in which they
live. Israel has no problem with rich Palestinians;
some of them are citizens of Israel or are working
with Israel in the West Bank to try and get rid of
the Hamas terrorists there. Israel wants all of the
Palestinians to be rich, for then their living next
to Israel would enrich Israel with trade and
investments. But Israel can't have open borders and
economic relations with the Palestinians until they
have shown that they have completely renounced all
terrorism and will not permit terrorists to live
freely among them.

youdahman posted in message #1:

The United States supports it, and many "Christian"
groups stand by Israel.

The United States supports Israel so much because of
geopolitical reasons, and because the Jewish lobby
(especially through AIPAC) is so extremely powerful
in Washington, and because much of the American Media
is Jewish-run, and because so many major editors and
journalists are Jewish, so that any politician or
journalist (or blogger or author or usenet poster)
who makes even the slightest peep against even the
slightest action by Israel is immediately tarred and
feathered as a Ku Klux Klan, Nazi, Anti-Semite who
denies that the Holocaust ever happened and who wants
the whole state of Israel thrown into the sea by the
Arabs and all Jews around the world "finally finished
off" by a "Final Solution", when in fact there are
many Jews (as well as Gentiles) who love the Jews and
love the state of Israel and think that its continued
existence and support for it is the least that should
be done for the Jews because of the horrible Holocaust
and because of continuing Anti-Semitism around the
world, but that because the state of Israel (as all
other states in the world) is run by mere human
beings, the state of Israel (as all other states in
the world) is not perfect in its decisions and actions
and its wrong ones should be acknowledged and worked
against, instead of pretending (as some Christians do)
that "the state of Israel can do no wrong, and
whatever it does is God's will and whoever makes the
slightest criticism against the state of Israel is
totally cursed by God and will soon suffer a horrible
death at His hands" (if not murdered in cold blood
at the hands of Mossad or Shin Bet elements, or
extremist Ultra-Orthodox Jews).

youdahman posted in message #1:

These people in sandals who are hurling rocks aren't
terrorists.

Israel can easily handle people who merely hurl
rocks, and is not afraid of them. What Israel is
afraid of, and rightly so, are the many Palestinians
in the West Bank and Gaza who are building bombs and
missiles in their children's bedrooms, or who are
being handed horrible bombs and missiles by Iran
(through Hezbollah in Lebanon), to be terroristically
employed (as they are continually) against innocent
Jewish civilians in Israel and the West Bank.

We must wake up. We must not be deceived by those who
pretend that the "poor Palestinians in their Jesus-
like sandals are all innocent doves who can do no
wrong and whom evil Israel is trying to control and
murder for no reason whatsoever but its own Satanic
bloodlust". We mustn't become Anti-Semites or deny
Israel its legal right to defend itself when
necessary against terrorist attacks by Palestinian
suicide bombers and missiles, or even mass riots of
rock-throwing youths, just as we wouldn't deny
the United States its legal right to defend itself
when necessary against terrorist attacks, or to send
police forces to shoot rubber bullets and tear gas at
a mass riot of rock-throwing youths in an American
city.

stumpjumper · Jun 8, 2008

Mod note:

More of a Christian Current Affairs topic than one for General Theology.

Moving on over...

chestertonrules · Jun 8, 2008

youdahman said:
youdahman said:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=peace%2C+propaganda%2C+and+the+promised+land&hl=en&sitesearch=#

Christians are being deceived. There is nothing Godly going on in the Jewish State. There is an illegal occupation and millions of people are under a foreign miliatary dictatorship.

Click to expand...

Israel is a Jewish state formed by the UN. However, the majority of the population of modern day Israel was Jewish long before the state was formed.

Arabs have 100 times more land in the middle east than Jews have. Why can't they just accept reality?

Questions for you:

Can Jews vote in Saudi Arabia? Were Jews driven out of muslim countries in the Middle east? Do you care?

You are clearly not well informed and you hold distorted views of the history of Israel and the current situation.

Arabs in Israel can vote and become members of the Kinnesset, and some are. Arabs in Israel have a better life than those in Arab countries(with the exception of the Emirates)

Stop the hate and distortion, please.

Tacere · Jun 8, 2008

youdahman said:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=peace,+propaganda,+and+the+promised+land&hl=en&sitesearch=#

Christians are being deceived. There is nothing Godly going on in the Jewish State. There is an illegal occupation and millions of people are under a foreign miliatary dictatorship.

Ignoring the fact Israel actually does have a right to exist, I guess by your logic you don't (or at least shouldn't) support the existence of the United States? Or probably any other country in the world?

Sabbathiel · Jun 8, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

rhwoqmzbxksm · Jun 10, 2008

cCensor said:
I have seen more and more of your type of post with out any thing showing where you are from. Now you are putting down the Jews.
Careful Sir: you do not have to defend God and How He feels about His people is between Himself and them.
The Jewish nation should be loved, because Our God loves them.

Censor

We should love EVERYONE because God is impartial. EVen the muslims and etc. But we don't have to like their deeds. Most ppl make a confusion between lovin and hating deeds. To love a person unconditionally=to give support and to help and to do wt's good for them. never does real love tolerate sin. God just gies them chances to reform (see the 1 & 2 (especially 2) Kings. Note the kings of Israel. The dynasties change every two generations or so, just because no one reformed. That's that. Love the sinner, hate the sin. period. "if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently" (Galatians 6:1)

Carey · Jun 10, 2008

Vinceat852 said:
We should love EVERYONE because God is impartial. EVen the muslims and etc. But we don't have to like their deeds. Most ppl make a confusion between lovin and hating deeds. To love a person unconditionally=to give support and to help and to do wt's good for them. never does real love tolerate sin. God just gies them chances to reform (see the 1 & 2 (especially 2) Kings. Note the kings of Israel. The dynasties change every two generations or so, just because no one reformed. That's that. Love the sinner, hate the sin. period. "if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently" (Galatians 6:1)

Please show me how rejoicing over any of these facts is loving the Jews more or less than a Muslim or Arab??

Isaiah 60

The Glory of Zion

This started when Jesus was born
1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.

2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.

This will happen after Jesus returns
3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

This started in 1948 AND IS STILL IN THE PROCESS TODAY
4 "Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
and your daughters are carried on the arm.
5 Then you will look and be radiant,
your heart will throb and swell with joy;
the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
to you the riches of the nations will come.

This has started but all from Sheba will not prause the Lord until he returns and conquers 6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the LORD.

This is future tense for us today because the Temple has not yet been rebuilt but Israel already has the Blueprints and plans to rebuild it.

7 All Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.

This is the Israeli airforce
8 "Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

This started in 1948 and is still in the process to this day.
9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, [a]
bringing your sons from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.

This started in 1948 and is still in the process today.He was angry because of Pagn worship and non circumcision. They stopped pagan worship and started circumcsing again which was the only prerequisit for them having their land of Canaan because of ABRahame faith not theirs.
10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.

This has not YET happened but is going to in the near future. 11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations
their kings led in triumphal procession.

Some nations like PALESTINE and HITLERS REGIME and SADDAMS REGIME
have already experienced this and more will in our immediate future.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.

This will probably be the next prophecy fulfilled in your lifetime you will see with your own eyes. Watch and behold the power of Yahweh the Father.
13 "The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the pine, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn the place of my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place of my feet.

This is in the near future as well
14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the LORD,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This is also future rense after Jesus returns.
15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.

This started happening in 1948 and is still going on today.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

This started happening in 1948 but is not yet totally fulfilled.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and righteousness your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end. 21 Then will all your people be righteous
and they will possess the land forever.
They are the shoot I have planted,
the work of my hands,
for the display of my splendor.

Swiftly to God is different than swiftly to man. This is all in the process and much has happened since 1948 proving might Father Yahweh and his word the Bible is true for this last generation before Jesus ( Yeshua ) returns.
22 The least of you will become a thousand,
the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the LORD;
in its time I will do this swiftly."

Micah68 · Jun 11, 2008

youdahman said:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=peace,+propaganda,+and+the+promised+land&hl=en&sitesearch=#

Christians are being deceived. There is nothing Godly going on in the Jewish State. There is an illegal occupation and millions of people are under a foreign miliatary dictatorship.

The United States supports it, and many "Christian" groups stand by Israel.

Mark 12:31 (Whole Chapter)
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I'm going to call it like I see it. < Staff Edit > You've become like the Jewish Leaders back in Christ day. You believe in a religion that is not like the ONe Christ preached. HE PREACHED LOVE.

If it is true when Christ said "By thier fruits ye shall know them" Please tell me, what fruits have Israel shown?

You base your beliefs off obscure bible texts and therefore you support israel, by whatever means necessary. Even if it means occupation, murder, opression, and poverty.

Now that i'm a little older, a little wiser, i finally start to see what my homer shaded glasses was covering.

These people in sandals who are hurling rocks aren't terrorists. Thier victims of an illegal occupation who are demonized to think thier evil.

For what? To fullfil prophecy? That isn't Godliness, but satanic.

Watch the video and tell me that we aren't being deceived about Israel, the palestinians, and ultimately, the false doctrine of dispensationalism. The idea that magically, the Jews, as a state, will accept Christ.

Its an insult to God, and an insult to our common sense.

How small man makes God to be. There is nothing Christ like or Christian in this doctrine and strips the New Covenant of all it's glory and blessing. To think we deserve more or that Christ's work is incomplete is the true sacrilege. No PEOPLE should suffer for the sake of another and IS NOT scripturally sanctioned. There has NEVER been a time in history where Israel exclusively held the land, NEVER; not even when they held it according to God's conditions/requirements. To support the modern day government as it is today is to support injustice, and what does the Lord require?

Do not give me this baloney that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic because it is not!! When a child does wrong you discipline him/her, the Israel government is doing wrong, they are breaking the laws of God and the laws of man.

Micah 6:8

The Tragedy of John Hagee's Christian Zionism

from Talk2Action.org

John Hagee is the perfect example of the tragedy of today's apocalyptic Christian Zionism. How is it possible that the most vehemently pro-Israel of Americans can hold such Judeophobic beliefs and spread them around the world? This is what I call the "Perverse Paradox" and Hagee is currently one of its best known worldwide purveyors. Behind the big Israeli flags and the protestations of great love for Jews, the foundation of this dispensationalist belief system is its total obsession with answering the problem of the Jewish rejection of Jesus. This obsession is pursued to the point of exclusion of other Christian doctrine. In dispensationalist theology, an elaborately detailed and futuristic prophecy timeline solves the problem as Judaism is ultimately defeated and humbled in a final bloody Holocaust, with only a repentant converted Jewish population being spared. A version of this narrative is the basis for sermons, movies, and literally millions of books sold in the last decade.
Historically philo-semitism has been a term to describe those groups that were tolerant of their Jewish population for whatever reason, whether that tolerance was based on acceptance or something less benign. However, apocalyptic philo-Semitism is not acceptance or even tolerance of the humanity of Jews or Israel; it is the other edge of the sword of anti-Semitism. Both anti-Semites and apocalyptic philo-Semites are obsessed with Jews and Judaism, and consumed with the imagined role that Jews play in world events. Both view Jews as supernatural in their abilities to alter the course of the world and both stereotype Jews in a way that suits their own goals but has little to do with Jewish reality. The difference is that dispensationalists see a possibility for eventual redemption if Jews will only fulfill their assigned role in the end-times drama, and they are driven by the belief that their generation is the one to finally bring about this miraculous transformation of Judaism.
One cannot blame previous generations of Jews for choosing apocalyptic philo-Semitism over overt anti-Semitism. Often in history there were no other choices for survival. But the great tragedy of the current relationship between some Jewish leaders and apocalyptic Christian Zionism is that there was another choice. Jews have been accepted in American society as something other than a supernatural pawn for many years. It is the humanity of American Jews which is being stripped away every time a Jewish leader stands on stage with an apocalyptic televangelist.

Full Article

Micah68 · Jun 11, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Israel is a Jewish state formed by the UN. However, the majority of the population of modern day Israel was Jewish long before the state was formed.

Arabs have 100 times more land in the middle east than Jews have. Why can't they just accept reality?

Questions for you:

Can Jews vote in Saudi Arabia? Were Jews driven out of muslim countries in the Middle east? Do you care?

You are clearly not well informed and you hold distorted views of the history of Israel and the current situation.

Arabs in Israel can vote and become members of the Kinnesset, and some are. Arabs in Israel have a better life than those in Arab countries(with the exception of the Emirates)

Stop the hate and distortion, please.

Click to expand...

Your understanding of the historical creation of modern day Israel and the states current policies reveals the same ol' propaganda and spew associated with dispensationalism and Christian zionsim.

Truth does NOT equal 'hate and distortion'. Now having family members, who are Arab, living in what is modern day Israel, I can tell you how they are really treated and I can personally tell you how it feels to have your land stolen away from you, land held in your family for centuries. Tell me, after looking in someones eyes and seeing their pain and humiliation, caused by the selfish whims of another, could you tell them that this is what God wants? Shame on you, even in OT times the children of Israel were required to live justly treating their neighbor as their self. Shame on you for condoning injustice all in the name of the Bible.

And for your information it was the Christians that drove the Jews out of GOD'S holy land, NOT the Muslims. Can you tell me why there are so many Jews living in other Islamic countries? Take for instant Iran, Iraq, Turkey, Moracco, Tunis, etc. You need to reread your history, this time try going to a scholarly site.

http://archive.elca.org/peacenotwalls/

Check out our new Peace Not Walls video!
Read the article: A Lutheran response to Christian Zionism, presented before the ELCA Conference of Bishops gathering in San Mateo, Calif., in March 2008, by Rev. Robert Smith.
Welcome to Peace Not Walls, the campaign of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to learn, pray and act for peace with justice in the Holy Land. The 2005 ELCA Churchwide Assembly adopted this strategy to promote a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and to call for a halt to construction of the separation barrier and its removal from Palestinian land. You can find out more in our FAQs.

We are working with other Lutherans and with ecumenical and interfaith partners toward:

safety and security for all Israelis and Palestinians,

reduction of poverty and unemployment, and

a negotiated final status agreement that includes a shared Jerusalem as capital of two independent states and with access and full rights in the city for Jews, Christians, and Muslims

Micah68 · Jun 11, 2008

As has been stated, contrary to the insistence of Christian Zionists, the promise of land was never an unconditional right, but always a conditional gift. During the wilderness wanderings, God prepared his people with promises,

Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. Leviticus 18:24-28

On the basis of such a passage, the present brutal, repressive and apartheid policies of the State of Israel would suggest another exile on the horizon rather than a restoration. As one Jewish peace activist put it, 'how sinful do you need to be to get to be on God's hit list?'2 With reference to the treatment of aliens, for example, 36x in the Hebrew scriptures the Jews were warned to be compassionate to strangers and aliens because they should remember their own collective experience living as aliens.

Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him for you were aliens in Egypt. Exodus 22:21

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God. Leviticus 19:33-34

The Exodus story, retold at every Passover was meant to remind the Hebrew people that they should be freed from the need to dominate and persecute. In the Psalms the inheritance of the land is celebrated as one of the greatest blessings of redemption. Psalm 37, for example, encourages the Jews not to despair over the prosperity of the wicked. They are told to trust in the Lord's promises that they shall inherit the land. In the context of other promises concerning the Land this must always be seen in terms of conditional residency rather than permanent possession. Six times in this Psalm this virtually identical phrase is used.

1Do not fret because of evil men or be envious of those who do wrong; 2for like the grass they will soon wither, like green plants they will soon die away.

3Trust in the Lord and do good; dwell in the land and enjoy safe pasture... 8Refrain from anger and turn from wrath; do not fret--it leads only to evil.

9For evil men will be cut off, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land... 18The days of the blameless are known to the Lord, and their inheritance will endure forever... 27Turn from evil and do good; then you will dwell in the land forever. 28For the Lord loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off; 29the righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever.

34Wait for the Lord and keep his way. He will exalt you to inherit the land;

when the wicked are cut off, you will see it. Psalm 37:1-40

This psalm was used regularly in Jewish worship and so it must have had the effect of strengthening the concept in the minds of the people that the land of Canaan was a gift of God. Only the righteous and faithful has the assurance that the land would be theirs. Isaiah's great prophecy begins with a similar warning,

16wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, 17learn to do right! Seek justice, encourage the oppressed. Defend the cause of the fatherless, plead the case of the widow... 27Zion will be redeemed with justice, her penitent ones with righteousness. 28But rebels and sinners will both be broken, and those who forsake the Lord will perish. Isaiah 1:16-17, 27-28

Jeremiah reiterates the corollary.

Through your own fault you will lose the inheritance I gave you. I will enslave you to your enemies in a land you do not know, for you have kindled my anger, and it will burn forever." Jeremiah 17:4

Daniel and Nehemiah both personified the individual and corporate repentance required before God would bring back his remnant. (Daniel 9:1-19; Nehemiah 1:4-11). Thus when God does bring the remnant back to the Land, he does so in accordance with the conditions described in Deuteronomy 30:1-5.

When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come upon you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. 4Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. 5He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. Deuteronomy. 30:1-5

Repentance is always a condition of return. The assertion therefore that the events subsequent to the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 indicate God's blessing on the Jewish people is totally without foundation in Scripture.

Jesus predicted that the Temple would be destroyed and the Jews exiled from the land as God's judgment for their failure to recognize Him as the Messiah (Luke 19:41-44). The repentance required in the terms of Deuteronomy 30 would, from the perspective of the New Covenant, require recognition of Jesus as Messiah as a condition of return. Never therefore can the promise of the land be claimed by those who fail to exercise true faith and faithfulness in the Redeemer provided by the Lord in the Covenant. The Land is never promised to Israel unconditionally, but always requiring repentance, faith and obedience. To affirm that the Land is Israel's right irrespective of her collective behavior is to contradict the most basic prophetic lesson of redemptive history in Scripture.

The challenge to Christian Zionists is therefore this. If they appeal to Genesis to claim the promise of the Land, what about Exodus and the commandments not to steal, kill and covet? If they believe in the predictive element of prophecy, what about the prophetic demand for justice? Palestinian theologians are not alone in seeing in the present Israeli governments policy of forcibly Judaizing the West Bank and East Jerusalem a 20th century parallel to Ahab's theft of Naboth's vineyard.3
What is needed among Christian Zionist's are contemporary Elijah's who, out of love for the Jewish people, are prepared to speak a prophetic warning to the Ahab's in the government of Israel today. The stronger the claim to the Land is made, allegedly from the Old Covenant, the more Christian Zionists must expect and indeed invite the evaluation of what the Jews have done in the Land by the moral standards of those same Scriptures.

fated · Jun 11, 2008

youdahman said:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=peace,+propaganda,+and+the+promised+land&hl=en&sitesearch=#

Christians are being deceived. There is nothing Godly going on in the Jewish State. There is an illegal occupation and millions of people are under a foreign miliatary dictatorship.

The United States supports it, and many "Christian" groups stand by Israel.

Mark 12:31 (Whole Chapter)
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I'm going to call it like I see it. < Staff Edit > You've become like the Jewish Leaders back in Christ day. You believe in a religion that is not like the ONe Christ preached. HE PREACHED LOVE.

If it is true when Christ said "By thier fruits ye shall know them" Please tell me, what fruits have Israel shown?

You base your beliefs off obscure bible texts and therefore you support israel, by whatever means necessary. Even if it means occupation, murder, opression, and poverty.

Now that i'm a little older, a little wiser, i finally start to see what my homer shaded glasses was covering.

These people in sandals who are hurling rocks aren't terrorists. Thier victims of an illegal occupation who are demonized to think thier evil.

For what? To fullfil prophecy? That isn't Godliness, but satanic.

Watch the video and tell me that we aren't being deceived about Israel, the palestinians, and ultimately, the false doctrine of dispensationalism. The idea that magically, the Jews, as a state, will accept Christ.

Its an insult to God, and an insult to our common sense.

The Jew's depopulated some of Israel in their struggle for independence... by defending their new community from outside rule imposition by the existent powers. The country was settled, then by immigrants forced out of the homes by Muslim nation all over the entire region.

The Jews, using a fairly socialist system at first, developed to a point wherein they could achieve a much more free society that we have as Israel today.

While you are partially correct in that Palestine is mistreated, judgement of the mistreatment is difficult, because (a) of the injust suffered by the Jews that are settle in Israel from the entire region and (b) continued assault by the Palestinians.

The Jews have very little reason re-populate Palestinians, because of (a) time since the depopulation, (b) a lack of any type of remuneration for what was stolen from them, (c) racial hatred, (d) a regional desire to oppress any Jewish nation state (which is what the region IS doing), and (e) the very real new human rights violations of depopulating (more) Jews.

And then, of course, Iran wants Israel to be destroyed, and gambles its poor people against the wests desire to control nuclear refinement in the country... Making Israel seem like a concentration camp for destruction by nuclear weapons.

People with unrealistic views of the situation complicate the issue by unjustly despising a particular group.

Palestine needs to have its own economy and its government needs to stop oppressing its people using very small pieces of land and re-population as reason for violence.

Israel need to make determinations on what to do with the contested lands, it is unlikely that they can be controlled by Israel itself, without causing continued, even "permanent" strife in the region.

ladyt28 · Jun 11, 2008

When I look at maps of the land before WWI and WWII, I see a large Palestine getting smaller and then disappearing. Now, I will be the fist to admit that I have a LOT to learn but I keep thinking about how a nation would feel if it were suddenly just taken from them and given to others. Are there Any instances in history where this was passively accepted without bloodshed?

I've tried to think of a hypothetical example and have come up with this. Let's say the UN started an effort to give land to Native Americans allowing them their own sovereign nation with borders. Let's say that this UN group was made of members from Europe and South American nations. Now let's say that they decided to give Texas to the Native Americans and forced the US to do so. Can you even begin to imagine how angry Texans would be? Could you imagine them going peacefully? Could you imagine the US being satisfied with this arrangement and never trying to get the land back for the Texans? I don't understand why people don't see why there has been a continued sense of uproar ever since Palestine was taken and given to others.

Am I condoning the violence? No, but I understand it. Am I against a Jewish state? No, but I don't see why I am expected to believe that the Jewish people were so 'entitled' to this land that people who don't live there were allowed to give it away and everyone was just supposed to be happy and accepting of it. Again I ask, exactly where else in history has this kind of thing been done without subsequent bloodshed?

Micah68 · Jun 11, 2008

From the early stages of Zionism to the present, Zionists have propagated the myth that Palestinians did not settle Palestine until it was later developed by the Israelis. To facilitate such disinformation, the Zionists adopted the following slogan to entice European Jewry to emigrate to Palestine:

"A land with no people is for a people with no land".

Had the Zionist leadership admitted the existence of an indigenous people, then they would have been obliged to explain how they intended to displace them. To disprove this baseless myth, let's quote Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister) who stated as early as 1918 that "Palestine is not an empty country". According to Shabtai Teveth (one of Ben-Gurion's official biographers), Ben-Gurion stated in an article published in 1918 that:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

Ben-Gurion often returned to this point, emphasizing that Palestinian Arabs had "the full right" to an independent economic, cultural, and communal life, but not political. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 37-38)
To destroy this baseless myth, click here to view a page that was scanned from a book which was conceived and edited by Ben-Gurion himself, stating that Jews made up 12% of the total Palestinian population as of 1914. It's not only that the majority of the Jews in Palestine were not Zionists (by Ben-Gurion's own admission), but they were also not even citizens of the country since many had recently fled anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia.
As the Ottoman census records show Palestine was widely inhabited in the late 19th and early 20th century, especially in the rural areas where agriculture was the main profession. According to Justine McCarthy (p. 26), an authority on the Ottoman Turks, Palestine's population in the early 19th century was 350,000, and in 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah).
So the Jewish population in Palestine as of 1914 were under 8% of the total population, which was much smaller than the Palestinian Christian Arab population. It should be noted that our source, Justine McCarthy was quoted by many Israeli Jewish scholars like Benny Morris and Tom Segev. In that regard, it's worth quoting one of the most ardent Zionists, Israel Zangwill, who stated as early as 1905, that Palestine was twice as thickly populated as the United States. He stated:

"Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us." (Righteous Victims, p. 140 & Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7-10)

In other words, Palestinians were recognized by the Zionist leadership as "humans" who populated Palestine, however, that was not good enough of a reason to "grant" them the same political rights as Jews, who mostly lived outside of Palestine. Consequently, this ideology was the prelude to the wholesale DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING of the Palestinian people during the 1948 war.

Soon after the first Zionist Congress in Basel (Switzerland) in 1897, a Zionist delegation was sent to Palestine for a fact finding mission, and to explore the viability of settling Palestine with persecuted European Jews. The delegation replied back from Palestine with a cable that stated:

"The bride is beautiful, but she is married to another man." (Iron Wall, p. 3)

Despite that many Zionists were aware of this happy marriage as early as 1897, they have deliberately chosen to terminate this relationship since they think that Jewish rights are more important than Palestinian rights. The forcible divorce of Palestine from its indigenous people was eloquently articulated by Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the founder of the Israeli political Right, in 1926 who explained that:

" ... the tragedy lies in the fact the there is a collision here between two truths .... but our justice is greater. The Arab is culturally backward, but his instinctive patriotism is just as pure and noble as our own; it cannot be bought, it can only be curbed ... force majeure." (Righteous Victims, p. 108)

The questions which beg to be asked are these:

Do two wrongs make a right?
Is it just to solve an injustice by perpetrating another injustice?
If at one point, Palestinian injustice becomes greater than Jewish injustice, does that justify perpetrating war crimes to solve their injustice?

What makes many Zionists dangerous over time is that they start believing their own propaganda. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel's Prime Minister between 1996-1998, proposed lately that Israel should never relinquish control over the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip since he claims that the local population are the descendents of non-indigenous Palestinians. He also alleged that these people came to look for employment that was generated by the influx of new European Jewish capital. Yehoshua Porat, a Hebrew University professor, refuted the late Prime Minister in an article published in Ha'aretz Daily, click here to read his rebuttal. It's worth noting that Professor Porat worked for the campaign to elect Benjamin Netanyahu in 1996, so it might not be a good idea to call him Netanyahu hater. Moreover, it should be noted that all Zionist investments in Palestine required employing Jewish labor as decreed by the Jewish National Fund's racist bylaws (United Nations: The origins of the Palestine problem). In other words, the primary beneficiary of Zionist investment were Jewish immigrants, and not the Palestinian native population.
It's really amusing that while nearly all Israelis and Zionists believe that Hawaii, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Tahiti, and Iraq were all populated by indigenous people prior to WW I, however, they find it extremely difficult to imagine that the "Promised Land" (one of the most strategic areas in the world) had any indigenous people whatsoever. It's as if the "Promised Land" had been waiting for over 2,000 years for Israelis and Zionists to settle it and make it bloom, click here to read our response to this argument.
Finally, it's not only that Palestine enjoyed a strategic commercial location (being the land bridge between Asia and Africa), its lands were also fertile and planted with all sorts of trees a long time before the Zionists came to its shorelines. So to claim that Palestine had no people until the Zionists came to settle it, is an absurd claim. Sadly, many Israelis and Zionists hate the idea of an indigenous Palestinian people to the point that they've created a fictitious world based on illusion. In that respect, the Palestinian people have a simple message: Over 8.5 million Palestinians are not going away. The sooner the Israelis and Zionists understand this simple message, the faster they will wake up from their delusional coma.
Related Links

Quoting Mark Twain out of context on Palestine
British Mandate: Arab and Jewish immigration to Palestine from 1920-1945
Palestine's population during the Ottoman and the British Mandate period By Justine McCarthy
Zionist FAQ: Isn't true that Palestine was a destitute place until Israelis made its desert bloom?
Zionist Quotes: Do Palestinians Exist, or Don't They? That's The Question?
Listen to an interview with the former Israeli Foreign Minister (Shlomo Ben-Ami) admitting that is a concocted myth that Palestine was empty until Jewish development of the country (starting from minute 12:00).
A Land With People, For a People with a Plan By Ludwig Watzal
Coming to terms with the right of return By Tom Pessah

This online booklet has been DIRECTLY EXTRACTED from the United Nations' website, however, we have REFORMATTED and LINKED its contents to make it easier to browse.

CLICK HERE for the official UN's version of this booklet.

Carey · Jun 11, 2008

ladyt28 said:
When I look at maps of the land before WWI and WWII, I see a large Palestine getting smaller and then disappearing. Now, I will be the fist to admit that I have a LOT to learn but I keep thinking about how a nation would feel if it were suddenly just taken from them and given to others. Are there Any instances in history where this was passively accepted without bloodshed?

I've tried to think of a hypothetical example and have come up with this. Let's say the UN started an effort to give land to Native Americans allowing them their own sovereign nation with borders. Let's say that this UN group was made of members from Europe and South American nations. Now let's say that they decided to give Texas to the Native Americans and forced the US to do so. Can you even begin to imagine how angry Texans would be? Could you imagine them going peacefully? Could you imagine the US being satisfied with this arrangement and never trying to get the land back for the Texans? I don't understand why people don't see why there has been a continued sense of uproar ever since Palestine was taken and given to others.

Am I condoning the violence? No, but I understand it. Am I against a Jewish state? No, but I don't see why I am expected to believe that the Jewish people were so 'entitled' to this land that people who don't live there were allowed to give it away and everyone was just supposed to be happy and accepting of it. Again I ask, exactly where else in history has this kind of thing been done without subsequent bloodshed?

Noone is condoneing violence. I do however commend Israel for not wiping out alll the Palestinians in the Hamas elected areas. Because we know if Hamas had the power they certainly would wipe out all Israelis.

They were never supposed to give up the land peacefully and Satan will never be satisfied with the Bible being fulfilled. Remember what happens to him in the end??

But here is what the Bible says.

Here rea Jeremiah 30 and see where it says the same as Isaiah 60 it is so plain to see as long as you forget the false doctrines of men who twist the Bible.

Jeremiah 30 12 "This is what the LORD says: ( remember God was angry because of paganism and non circumcision )
" 'Your wound is incurable,
your injury beyond healing.

13 There is no one to plead your cause,
no remedy for your sore,
no healing for you.
14 All your allies have forgotten you;
they care nothing for you.
I have struck you as an enemy would
and punished you as would the cruel,
because your guilt is so great
and your sins so many. ( God used Rome, hitler.many others and the Palestinians to be a pain today punish Israel )
15 Why do you cry out over your wound,
your pain that has no cure? ( Arab Muslim palestinian conflict = Pain )
Because of your great guilt and many sins
I have done these things to you.

This has already happened to the romans Hitler saddam and Palestine and their are more on Gods hit list like Iran for example who I think is next
16 " 'But all who devour you will be devoured;
all your enemies will go into exile.
Those who plunder you will be plundered;
all who make spoil of you I will despoil.

This started in 1948 and is ongoing today 17 But I will restore you to health
and heal your wounds,'
declares the LORD,
'because you are called an outcast,
Zion for whom no one cares.' ( and most of the countries of the world do not care for ZION Israel ) The word zion angers people who have been decieved by Satan

This started in 1948 and is ongoing today

18 "This is what the LORD says:
" 'I will restore the fortunes of Jacob's tents
and have compassion on his dwellings;
the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
and the palace will stand in its proper place.

This started in 1948 and is ongoing today
19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
and the sound of rejoicing.
I will add to their numbers,
and they will not be decreased;
I will bring them honor,
and they will not be disdained.( and they are not disdained by true Christians today but the rest of the world will have to be put under Christs foot before their disdain will be removed.)
20 Their children will be as in days of old,
and their community will be established before me;
I will punish all who oppress them. ( Like palestine , Rome , Hitlers Germany, Saddams Iraq, and soon Armadinijads Iran ) 21 Their leader will be one of their own; ( we know eventually this will be Jesus who is one of their own. But Their leaders since 1948 have been one of their own. )

Isaiah 60

The Glory of Zion

This started when Jesus was born
1 "Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the LORD rises upon you.

2 See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the LORD rises upon you
and his glory appears over you.

This will happen after Jesus returns
3 Nations will come to your light,
and kings to the brightness of your dawn.

This started in 1948 AND IS STILL IN THE PROCESS TODAY
4 "Lift up your eyes and look about you:
All assemble and come to you;
your sons come from afar,
and your daughters are carried on the arm.
5 Then you will look and be radiant,
your heart will throb and swell with joy;
the wealth on the seas will be brought to you,
to you the riches of the nations will come.

This has started but all from Sheba will not prause the Lord until he returns and conquers 6 Herds of camels will cover your land,
young camels of Midian and Ephah.
And all from Sheba will come,
bearing gold and incense
and proclaiming the praise of the LORD.

This is future tense for us today because the Temple has not yet been rebuilt but Israel already has the Blueprints and plans to rebuild it.

7 All Kedar's flocks will be gathered to you,
the rams of Nebaioth will serve you;
they will be accepted as offerings on my altar,
and I will adorn my glorious temple.

This is the Israeli airforce
8 "Who are these that fly along like clouds,
like doves to their nests?

This started in 1948 and is still in the process to this day.
9 Surely the islands look to me;
in the lead are the ships of Tarshish, [a]
bringing your sons from afar,
with their silver and gold,
to the honor of the LORD your God,
the Holy One of Israel,
for he has endowed you with splendor.

This started in 1948 and is still in the process today.He was angry because of Pagn worship and non circumcision. They stopped pagan worship and started circumcsing again which was the only prerequisit for them having their land of Canaan because of ABRahame faith not theirs.
10 "Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.

This has not YET happened but is going to in the near future. 11 Your gates will always stand open,
they will never be shut, day or night,
so that men may bring you the wealth of the nations
their kings led in triumphal procession.

Some nations like PALESTINE and HITLERS REGIME and SADDAMS REGIME
have already experienced this and more will in our immediate future.
12 For the nation or kingdom that will not serve you will perish;
it will be utterly ruined.

This will probably be the next prophecy fulfilled in your lifetime you will see with your own eyes. Watch and behold the power of Yahweh the Father.
13 "The glory of Lebanon will come to you,
the pine, the fir and the cypress together,
to adorn the place of my sanctuary;
and I will glorify the place of my feet.

This is in the near future as well
14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you;
all who despise you will bow down at your feet
and will call you the City of the LORD,
Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

This is also future rense after Jesus returns.
15 "Although you have been forsaken and hated,
with no one traveling through,
I will make you the everlasting pride
and the joy of all generations.

This started happening in 1948 and is still going on today.
16 You will drink the milk of nations
and be nursed at royal breasts.
Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

This started happening in 1948 but is not yet totally fulfilled.
17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold,
and silver in place of iron.
Instead of wood I will bring you bronze,
and iron in place of stones.
I will make peace your governor
and righteousness your ruler.
18 No longer will violence be heard in your land,
nor ruin or destruction within your borders,
but you will call your walls Salvation
and your gates Praise.
19 The sun will no more be your light by day,
nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you,
for the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your God will be your glory.
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end. 21 Then will all your people be righteous
and they will possess the land forever.
They are the shoot I have planted,
the work of my hands,
for the display of my splendor.

Swiftly to God is different than swiftly to man. This is all in the process and much has happened since 1948 proving might Father Yahweh and his word the Bible is true for this last generation before Jesus ( Yeshua ) returns.
22 The least of you will become a thousand,
the smallest a mighty nation.
I am the LORD;
in its time I will do this swiftly."

Micah68 · Jun 11, 2008

Revoking the Covenant

Zechariah 11:4-13
Luke 22:1-6

It is around 500 BCE. The Jewish exile had returned from Babylon to rebuild the temple, but the work had been stalled. It fell on the Prophets Haggai and Zechariah to confrom this failure of mission and build the hope of the people by pointing to the coming of the Messiah.

Like no other time before or since, the nation of Israel had forsaken its worship of idols and had begun to develop a theology of hope. They had, however, returned to a mess. Their city was in ruins; their walls had been destroyed; their temple was gone; they were surrounded by marauding bands of hostile nations. Zechariah told of the God who would send His Messenger to rescue His people and to reign over the earth. The rebuilding of the temple was to be the first act in the drama of the coming of the eternal Kingdom of God in the Messianic Age.

Their King was coming! They must get ready!

Along with that message of hope came a warning that the Messianic Kingdom would not come instantly upon the rebuilding of the temple. Gods people would face sorrow and despair before Christs arrival. God remained angry that His people had ignored the prophets and had followed false leaders who exploited them. There would, however, be deliverance.

There developed a strong Messianic theology of hope in the post-exilic church in Israel. Judaism moved away from Heretz, equating the land with Gods promise to Abraham, and moved toward a spiritual Kingdom that had nothing to do with the land. Unfortunately, however, the land and a physical kingdom eventually became the focus and played into the downfall of Israel.

What may surprise you is that it also played into God eventually revoking His covenant with Israel.

When the people lost sight of the spiritual Kingdom of God and equated the Messianic Age with restoration of the physical land of Israel, they lost their hope and failed to recognize Jesus as Messiah.
(Continued)

We are all being deceived.

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