Was Martin Luther saved?

Blank123 · May 20, 2013

ImperatorWall said:
On the contrary, I think defining our terms is of the utmost importance. Only in this way are we able to come to a proper understanding of each others position and then move forward seeking truth.

If you are not willing to do so, that's fine.

But I'm not even sure what you mean by calling it semantics. Are you saying you agree with me and worded your initial statement incorrectly, or that you think I agree with you and don't realize it?

I'm saying that you're over-analyzing and digging too deeply to create an argument where none exists.

Calvinator · May 20, 2013

I think it's incredibly arrogant for any man to make a judgement that any other man is "saved" or not. We are fallible beings that cannot see inside people's hearts with 100% clarity and knowledge. We don't all share the same life experiences or upbringing or trials in life.

Christians, or anyone else for that matter pointing fingers and proclaiming

"Saved!"

or

"Not Saved!"

Is playing God.

WisdomTree · May 20, 2013

ImperatorWall said:
I don't think re-writing the ten commandments...

What on earth do you mean by that?

Blackguard_ · May 20, 2013

little tigress said:
I'm saying that you're over-analyzing and digging too deeply to create an argument where none exists.

He does have a point though, your holding to the Gospel doesn't save you, the object of your faith, God and what he has done/promises to do, does.

Blank123 · May 20, 2013

Blackguard_ said:
He does have a point though, your holding to the Gospel doesn't save you, the object of your faith, God and what he has done/promises to do, does.

And we call that the gospel. Last I checked anyhow. Assuming we're discussing the Biblical gospel saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

There are false gospels which of course aren't exactly of the saving nature.

ImperatorWall · May 20, 2013

little_tigress said:
I'm saying that you're over-analyzing and digging too deeply to create an argument where none exists.

I'm doing neither, I'm simply trying to understand what you are saying.

You seem to have contradicted yourself, and I'm trying to unravel the mental knots you have created in my mind.

ImperatorWall · May 20, 2013

WisdomTree said:
What on earth do you mean by that?

The first two commandments from Luther's Small Catechism:

"The First Commandment
You shall have no other gods.

What does this mean?
We should fear, love,
and trust in God above all things.

The Second Commandment

You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, use

satanic arts, lie, or deceive by His name, but call upon it
in every trouble, pray, praise, and

give thanks."

The first two commandments from the Bible:

Exodus:

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Luther refused to acknowledge 20:4-6 as not only the second commandment, but as a commandment altogether. He split the last commandment into two to make it equal ten again.

From the Small Catechism:

"The Ninth Commandment
You shall not covet your neighbours house.

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God so that we do not scheme to get our

neighbours inheritance or house, or get it in a way which only appears right, but help and be of service to him in keeping it.

The Tenth Commandment

You shall not covet your neighbours wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

What does this mean?
We should fear and love God so that we do not entice or force away
our neighbours wife, workers, or animals, or turn them against him, but urge them to stay and
do their duty."

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

yeah, the Bible does not really have numbers besides the 10 commandments, so you have to kind of divide it up yourself

do you think that men covets their neighbors wives the same way they covet other martial goods?

do you think that worshiping idols is the same as worshiping other gods?

it seems to be natural to separate the two different kinds of coveting while lumping together the two different kinds, really only one kind, of idolatry

Blackguard_ · May 20, 2013

Rhamiel said:
yeah, the Bible does not really have numbers besides the 10 commandments, so you have to kind of divide it up yourself

Right, we could as well have had the 12 Commandments, and Luther was following the Catholics in lumping "have no other gods or idols"
into one commandment, so if anyone wants to say that was to excuse the abuse of icons and statues, the blame doesn't belong on Luther.

Also, didn't the Ark of the Covenant have images of cherubim on it? I don't think the Israelites worshiped them though.

It was Calvin grinding an iconoclastic axe that lead to one commandment being split into two.

Somber · May 21, 2013

Blackguard_ said:
Right, we could as well have had the 12 Commandments, and Luther was following the Catholics in lumping "have no other gods or idols"
into one commandment, so if anyone wants to say that was to excuse the abuse of icons and statues, the blame doesn't belong on Luther.

Also, didn't the Ark of the Covenant have images of cherubim on it? I don't think the Israelites worshiped them though.

It was Calvin grinding an iconoclastic axe that lead to one commandment being split into two.

I know that the bible does mention ten commandments, upon two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, Exodus 34:28). I have noticed that the catholic church has them arranged differently, and I don't think that God intended them to be abbreviated and arranged in certain ways. I think reading through it is kind of easy to see which ones relate to specific commandments.

SnowyMacie · May 21, 2013

.Quietude. said:
I know that the bible does mention ten commandments, upon two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, Exodus 34:28). I have noticed that the catholic church has them arranged differently, and I don't think that God intended them to be abbreviated and arranged in certain ways. I think reading through it is kind of easy to see which ones relate to specific commandments.

They kind of are arranged in a certain way, if you look 1-4 is all about interactions between God and man, and 5-10 is all about man interaction with man.

WisdomTree · May 21, 2013

Blackguard_ said:
Right, we could as well have had the 12 Commandments, and Luther was following the Catholics in lumping "have no other gods or idols"
into one commandment, so if anyone wants to say that was to excuse the abuse of icons and statues, the blame doesn't belong on Luther.

Also, didn't the Ark of the Covenant have images of cherubim on it? I don't think the Israelites worshiped them though.

It was Calvin grinding an iconoclastic axe that lead to one commandment being split into two.

The numbering of the Ten Commandmants used by the Reformed Protestants is the same as the Orthodox Church. There are three ways the Ten Commandmants were numbered.

ImperatorWall · May 21, 2013

Blackguard_ said:
Right, we could as well have had the 12 Commandments, and Luther was following the Catholics in lumping "have no other gods or idols"
into one commandment, so if anyone wants to say that was to excuse the abuse of icons and statues, the blame doesn't belong on Luther.

Also, didn't the Ark of the Covenant have images of cherubim on it? I don't think the Israelites worshiped them though.

It was Calvin grinding an iconoclastic axe that lead to one commandment being split into two.

I am well aware of the history and rationalization of the Lutheran take on the ten commandments. And Luther was responsible for whatever he believed, as we all are. But more than that, he was a preacher and a teacher who had great influence, so his teaching and justification of icons definitely rests the "blame" squarely on his shoulders.

Quietude is exactly right, the Bible itself references ten commandments. Ten were given, ten we have; allusions to a possible twelve are completely irrelevant. But more than that, there are thousands of years of both Christan and Jewish history behind the understanding of the ten commandments.

As for your mention of the Ark, I'm not sure what you are trying to communicate. You will find nothing in Scripture that contradicts the second of the ten commandments.

Rhamiel · May 21, 2013

nothing wrong with icons,
that is why the Ark was mentioned
many times in the OT images were used, like the cherubim on the ark or the bronze serpent on a pole or the many images in the temple of Solomon
so the idea that Luther was evil because he used images goes against the Bible

ImperatorWall · May 21, 2013

Rhamiel said:
nothing wrong with icons,
that is why the Ark was mentioned
many times in the OT images were used, like the cherubim on the ark or the bronze serpent on a pole or the many images in the temple of Solomon
so the idea that Luther was evil because he used images goes against the Bible

Well and good.

But if you would have a problem with me burning a cross, you have made that icon an idol.

trentlogain2 · May 23, 2013

he had some whacked out views that unfortunately crossed over from roman catholics, but he is credited as being instrumental in the reformation. i do believe he was saved and was well acquainted with Jesus. did he have some serious issues? yes he did.

we all do.

he was a man of God though.

Rhamiel · May 23, 2013

he brought disunity and set up his own sect

Was Martin Luther saved?

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