Was EGW inspired the same as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

reddogs · May 2, 2007

...or was her she inspired like Elijah, Samuel or John the Baptist? Or is all inspired writings the same?

(This question comes from a friend of mine who said that the writers of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John just wrote more of a historical record...)

Ptilinopus · May 2, 2007

Hi Reddog,

I appreciate the candour of the question. What you are really asking, I think, is what is inspiration? A good question too - are all inspirations equal?!!

The key passages would seem to be 2 Peter 1:20,21, and 2 Timothy 3:16. Both speak of inspiration, one of scripture, the other of speaking. They tell us that prophets - those given a message by God to proclaim to people on earth - do not receive their messages from humans, but from God - as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, or through inspiration ("God-breathed"). Inspiration is a useful term, for in both Hebrew and Greek, the word for spirit is the same as the word for breath (and indeed wind). Given this inderstanding, "moved by the Holy Spirit" and "God-breathed" or "by inspiration of God" effectively mean the same thing.

So in the sense of the origin of the messages, yes, the inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, John the Baptist, Elijah, Samuel and EG White, is the same. What is not the same is the functions they were given.

Not all prophets were given the task of writing scripture - obviously. There are many named (including Elijah, John the Baptist, Samuel, Huldah, Deborah, Agabus, the 7 daughters of Philip, Elisha) whose primary task was to give God's messages to the people in their time. Some we have no record of their ever writing anything - they preached. Others wrote, but their writings were not kept under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as part of Holy Scripture. Even Paul is in this latter category for some of his writings - he mentions at least 2 letters which are not part of Scripture (to Laodiceans, and a letter to Corinthians between 1 and 2 Cor.).

Others were given the task of recording God's messages and the record of God's dealings with humankind for all time - the Scriptures. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would be in this last category. Even the historical writers wrote under inspiration. 1 Corinthians 10:11 indicates that the stories and histories were given as examples to us - the implication is given by God - i.e. by inspiration.

That Paul's writings at least were already considered Scripture as early as 65AD is evident from Peter's statement in 2 Peter 3:15,16 - speaking of Paul's writings, he says the unstable wrest or twist them as the do "the other scriptures" which implies he considered Paul's writings scriptures too! Interesting.

Ellen White's writings, by applying the test of a prophet as outlined in scriptures, qualify her to be called inspired. She declared again and again that they were not Holy Scripture, that they were a "lesser light" to point to the Greater (the Bible). Her role was to bear reproofs, corrections, instruction in righteousness, and to confirm doctrine after others had already studied it from the Bible. In particular, she was to draw attention back to Jesus at a time when the world at large was moving ever further away from Christ.

So - inspired, in the same way the others were inspired, but like some of them, for a purpose OTHER than writing scripture.

Hope this helps - sorry I get rather long-winded.

reddogs · May 2, 2007

Ptilinopus said:
Hi Reddog,

I appreciate the candour of the question. What you are really asking, I think, is what is inspiration? A good question too - are all inspirations equal?!!

The key passages would seem to be 2 Peter 1:20,21, and 2 Timothy 3:16. Both speak of inspiration, one of scripture, the other of speaking. They tell us that prophets - those given a message by God to proclaim to people on earth - do not receive their messages from humans, but from God - as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, or through inspiration ("God-breathed"). Inspiration is a useful term, for in both Hebrew and Greek, the word for spirit is the same as the word for breath (and indeed wind). Given this inderstanding, "moved by the Holy Spirit" and "God-breathed" or "by inspiration of God" effectively mean the same thing.

So in the sense of the origin of the messages, yes, the inspiration of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, John the Baptist, Elijah, Samuel and EG White, is the same. What is not the same is the functions they were given.

Not all prophets were given the task of writing scripture - obviously. There are many named (including Elijah, John the Baptist, Samuel, Huldah, Deborah, Agabus, the 7 daughters of Philip, Elisha) whose primary task was to give God's messages to the people in their time. Some we have no record of their ever writing anything - they preached. Others wrote, but their writings were not kept under the guidance of the Holy Spirit as part of Holy Scripture. Even Paul is in this latter category for some of his writings - he mentions at least 2 letters which are not part of Scripture (to Laodiceans, and a letter to Corinthians between 1 and 2 Cor.).

Others were given the task of recording God's messages and the record of God's dealings with humankind for all time - the Scriptures. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would be in this last category. Even the historical writers wrote under inspiration. 1 Corinthians 10:11 indicates that the stories and histories were given as examples to us - the implication is given by God - i.e. by inspiration.

That Paul's writings at least were already considered Scripture as early as 65AD is evident from Peter's statement in 2 Peter 3:15,16 - speaking of Paul's writings, he says the unstable wrest or twist them as the do "the other scriptures" which implies he considered Paul's writings scriptures too! Interesting.

Ellen White's writings, by applying the test of a prophet as outlined in scriptures, qualify her to be called inspired. She declared again and again that they were not Holy Scripture, that they were a "lesser light" to point to the Greater (the Bible). Her role was to bear reproofs, corrections, instruction in righteousness, and to confirm doctrine after others had already studied it from the Bible. In particular, she was to draw attention back to Jesus at a time when the world at large was moving ever further away from Christ.

So - inspired, in the same way the others were inspired, but like some of them, for a purpose OTHER than writing scripture.

Hope this helps - sorry I get rather long-winded.

That gives me some points to ponder, I felt they were all given different levels with Elijah being at a higher level for prophets and Daniel for writers but I will have to study it deeper and see........

djconklin · May 2, 2007

I felt they were all given different levels with Elijah being at a higher level for prophets and Daniel for writers

That gets you into the can of worms idea that there are different "levels" of inspiration.

We could say that since Matthew, Peter (aka Mark), and John were actually there they didn't need to have a vision like some in the OT when they wrote their gospels. Luke tells us what he did before he wrote his--consulted what others had written. But, I think then you are talking about modes of inspiration vs. being inspired itself.

Side-bar: on the plagiarism question the critics of EGW claim that they know the other writers (from whom EGW allegedly borrowed material) weren't inspired. This raises two questions: 1) how do they know that the other writers weren't inspired?, and 2) could those writers have been inspired and not known whence the inspiration to write came from?

Years ago at church my dad was leading song service and we were going to sing the song "Just When I need Him Most." He pointed out that as a design engineer he frequently was given projects which were outside that of mechanical engineering and of course, he'd get stumped and not know how to solve it. Then *Bang!* he knows how! He credits God for giving him the idea. I had similar experiences while writing papers in the seminary.

reddogs · May 2, 2007

djconklin said:
That gets you into the can of worms idea that there are different "levels" of inspiration.

We could say that since Matthew, Peter (aka Mark), and John were actually there they didn't need to have a vision like some in the OT when they wrote their gospels. Luke tells us what he did before he wrote his--consulted what others had written. But, I think then you are talking about modes of inspiration vs. being inspired itself.

Side-bar: on the plagiarism question the critics of EGW claim that they know the other writers (from whom EGW allegedly borrowed material) weren't inspired. This raises two questions: 1) how do they know that the other writers weren't inspired?, and 2) could those writers have been inspired and not known whence the inspiration to write came from?

Years ago at church my dad was leading song service and we were going to sing the song "Just When I need Him Most." He pointed out that as a design engineer he frequently was given projects which were outside that of mechanical engineering and of course, he'd get stumped and not know how to solve it. Then *Bang!* he knows how! He credits God for giving him the idea. I had similar experiences while writing papers in the seminary.

But wouldnt those who wrote prophecy like John or Daniel have more interaction with visions, angels and views of future events, you could almost say a more direct inspiration versus writers such as Matthew who basically stayed to verifiable events?

reddogs · May 3, 2007

So could we be receiving the same ("God-breathed") inspiration from the Holy Spirit now, if so why are we not seeing writers/writings on the level of scripture or EGW?

djconklin · May 3, 2007

So could we be receiving the same ("God-breathed") inspiration from the Holy Spirit now, if so why are we not seeing writers/writings on the level of scripture or EGW?

Well, to use my own case as an example I only came up with 3 good ideas per paper (and only on a few papers at that) that I could ascribe at least some (I'll leave out the math one--how many lambs were slain while Christ died? Given that number and the number of priests and the time it takes is there enough time to do all of them in a couple of hours or as some suggested, they had Passover on two days?). So, there wouldn't be enough to write even a full book. Just because God inspires you on one thing that doesn't mean that you are always inspired.

Look at Peter. The HS fell on him at Pentecost and yet years later Paul had to stand up to him and get in his face. And look how little he wrote!

reddogs · May 3, 2007

Yes, Paul really chewed on Peter and it caused a distance between them. I wish we had more from Peter's point of view as Paul seems to have been head and shoulders above the rest in many ways.......

djconklin · May 3, 2007

But wouldnt those who wrote prophecy like John or Daniel have more interaction with visions, angels and views of future events, you could almost say a more direct inspiration versus writers such as Matthew who basically stayed to verifiable events?

Yes and no. Matthew had to have been inspired not just to write but as to how to organize his material (5 great sermons "=" first 5 books of the OT) and which prophecies he used.

djconklin · May 3, 2007

So could we be receiving the same ("God-breathed") inspiration from the Holy Spirit now, if so why are we not seeing writers/writings on the level of scripture or EGW?

Theoretically possible. I could say that it kicks in for me when I am reminded to add such-and-such a point.

reddogs · May 4, 2007

djconklin said:
Theoretically possible. I could say that it kicks in for me when I am reminded to add such-and-such a point.

I have this feeling that we are seeing the same ("God-breathed") inspiration from the Holy Spirit now, but only to those who are prepared, and they can barely be heard with the din and loud sound of satans minions attacking and deriding the truth being given.....

RC_NewProtestants · May 4, 2007

Was EGW inspired the same as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

...or was her she inspired like Elijah, Samuel or John the Baptist? Or is all inspired writings the same?

It is curious as to what the questioner is really asking. Is Ellen White inspired like the Apostles? Is that why the list of Matthew Mark Luke and John. Or is it a reference to the writers of the books that tradition has ascribed to the books we call Matthew Mark Luke and John.

The differences are really quite big. If the attempt is to ascribe to Ellen White Apostolic authority verses inspiration that lead to small books which were written for varied purposes. since the New Testament in their list of authority put apostles over prophets it becomes an important distinction. The Apostles took Old Testament prophets work and applied it to Christ and in some cases ascribed to the Old Testament texts meaning which it would not have had in the Old Testament. In effect if you took EGW in an Apostolic way she would have precedence over the Bible in much the same way as the New Testament has precedence over the Old Testament.

NightEternal · May 4, 2007

Excellent points RC_NewProtestants. The church already regards her as equal to the Bible in authourity. If we Adventists officially give EGW apostolic authourity (which many in the church have unofficially been doing for years) we are neck deep in a whole lot of complications and trouble and we might as well pack our bags and end this whole thing, because we are officially a cult.

We will also be so far from Sola Scriptura and true Protestantism that we might never find our way back.

I tremble for the future of our denomination....

reddogs · May 4, 2007

NightEternal said:
Excellent points RC_NewProtestants. The church already regards her as equal to the Bible in authourity. If we Adventists officially give EGW apostolic authourity (which many in the church have unofficially been doing for years) we are neck deep in a whole lot of complications and trouble and we might as well pack our bags and end this whole thing, because we are officially a cult.

We will also be so far from Sola Scriptura and true Protestantism that we might never find our way back.

I tremble for the future of our denomination....

In Latin churches it is normal to hear "La Senora White dice (Sister White Says)" at times before you hear "In scripture it says", so I know the problem. But with careful and kind guidance and gentle rebuke against it, that can be corrected. But hate, anger, evil attacks against fellow SDA's and all in all well meaning Christians by those who have turned against the church or altogether left it, is wrong and uncalled for. Only Satan gains by these actions and his evil purpose is enhanced, if you have something spiritual to give those in the church it should be done in love, with kindness and to lift them up in Gods truth and help them on the path to eternal life.......

djconklin · May 4, 2007

If the attempt is to ascribe to Ellen White Apostolic authority verses inspiration that lead to small books which were written for varied purposes.

That idea is being read in. The question is about inspiration.

The church already regards her as equal to the Bible in authourity.

Tell me their names and I'll ding 'em right up alongside the head. Nobody at my church, or any of the dozens of churches I've been in do that.

In Latin churches it is normal to hear "La Senora White dice (Sister White Says)" at times before you hear "In scripture it says",

That's because she is easier to remember--much more modern English compared to the Elizabethean English of the KJV. And thanks to some pastors our churches are quite ignorant of the Bible--I used to sit in the chapel in AU seminary and have to tell the "A" student which way to turn in his Bible to find the text that was referred to!

NightEternal · May 4, 2007

djconklin said:
Tell me their names and I'll ding 'em right up alongside the head. Nobody at my church, or any of the dozens of churches I've been in do that.

In the local churches there have been isolated incidents here and there from fringe individuals; usually they are affiliated with Shepherd's Rod, SDA Reform or Remnant Of The Remnant. You get a Shepherd's Rod individual in the church and it's like a cancer that is almost impossible to remove. And once you have gotten rid of them, they have already left a swath of ruined Adventists and new legalistic, EGW worshipping adherents. It's horrifying to witness. Pastors do not do enough to stand up to these extremists.

Many times, a renegade individual in the local church who views EGW as equal to the Bible will do thier nefarious work behind the scenes, behind the pastor's back. Slowly, steadily, he will convince members who do not know better of his grand, imperialistic claims of EGW's 'REAL' authourity. A few are blatant about it, and they are usually pretty vocal in prayer meetings and Sabbath School, almost daring anyone to challenge them.

You HAVEN'T encountered any of these people in all your years in the denomination? Wow.

Alright djconklin, let the dinging commence!

Here is only a partial list of ministries, websites, forums and individuals who unapologetically regard EGW as just as inspired as the Bible and, thus, equal in authourity in every aspect of theology and practical living:

Ministries:

* HARTLAND
* HOPE INTERNATIONAL (OUR FIRM FOUNDATION)
* WEIMAR INSTITUTE
* SHEPHERD'S ROD
* SDA REFORM
* REMNANT OF THE REMNANT

Websites and Forums:

* SDADEFEND
* TEMCAT'S PLACE
* REVIVAL SERMONS
* GREAT CONTROVERSY.ORG
* PRESENT TRUTH MINISTRIES
* ADVENTIST AFFIRM
* SDA APOSTASY

Individuals

* RALPH LARSON
* LARRY KIRKPATRICK
* KEVIN PAULSON
* SAM PIPPIM
* RON SPEAR
* DENNIS PRIEBE
* RUSSELL STANDISH
* COLIN STANDISH
* VANCE FARRELL
* JAN MARCUSSEN
* STEPHEN LEWIS
* RICHARD O'FFILL
* HERBERT DOUGLASS
* JOE CREWS (WAIT, HE'S DEAD-NEVER MIND...)

That should be enough to get you started. You've got your work cut out for you.

Once you have finished 'educating' them, I have plenty more standing by...

reddogs · May 4, 2007

NightEternal said:
In the local churches there have been isolated incidents here and there from fringe individuals; usually they are affiliated with Shepherd's Rod, SDA Reform or Remnant Of The Remnant. You get a Shepherd's Rod individual in the church and it's like a cancer that is almost impossible to remove. And once you have gotten rid of them, they have already left a swath of ruined Adventists and new legalistic, EGW worshipping adherents. It's horrifying to witness. Pastors do not do enough to stand up to these extremists.

Alright djconklin, let the dinging commence!

Here is only a partial list of ministries, websites, forums and individuals who unapologetically regard EGW as just as inspired as the Bible and,thus, equal in authourity in every aspect of theology and practical living:

Ministries:

* HARTLAND
* HOPE INTERNATIONAL (OUR FIRM FOUNDATION)
* SHEPHERD'S ROD
* SDA REFORM
* REMNANT OF THE REMNANT

Websites and Forums:

* SDADEFEND
* TEMCAT'S PLACE
* REVIVAL SERMONS
* GREAT CONTROVERSY.ORG
* PRESENT TRUTH MINISTRIES
* ADVENTIST AFFIRM
* SDA APOSTASY

Individuals

* RALPH LARSON
* LARRY KIRKPATRICK
* KEVIN PAULSON
* SAM PIPPIM
* RON SPEAR
* DENNIS PRIEBE
* RUSSELL STANDISH
* COLIN STANDISH
* VANCE FARRELL
* JAN MARCUSSEN
* STEPHEN LEWIS

That should be enough to get you started. You've got your work cut out for you.

Once you have finished 'educating' them, I have plenty more standing by...

So does that justify attacks against those who hold God's truth and His word in proper perspective and still believe in the inspiration shown in Ellen Whites writtings.

She said the following on her writtings: "Additional truth is not brought out; but God has through the Testimonies simplified the great truths already given and in His own chosen way brought them before the people to awaken and impress the mind with them, that all may be left without excuse." "The written testimonies are not given to give new light, but to impress vividly upon the heart the truths of inspiration already revealed." Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 665.

djconklin · May 4, 2007

Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says, {Spalding and Magan Collection, page 167, paragraph 2}

They've been told over and over again--what does it take for some folks to learn the lesson?

Loveaboveall · May 4, 2007

Okay, so if Paul had 2 other writings as Ptilinopus points out, what do we make of them? Are they inspired writings? Do we hold them as scripture. Why or why not?

Think about other people who were farther removed from the early church. Martin Luther for instance; Did God inspire his writing of the 95 thesis? What about the other reformers who slowly began to understand more truth, were they inspired?

Andrew Murray is a great author that I love to read who lived in the late 1800's, He writes some deep stuff that would, in my opinion, pass for EGW writings if you did not know the author. Could he have been inspired to write what he wrote?

I guess the big question I am asking is this: Can someone be inspired but not have the whole truth such as the reformers?

And does being inspired mean you are infallible?

Loveaboveall · May 4, 2007

reddogs said:
I have this feeling that we are seeing the same ("God-breathed") inspiration from the Holy Spirit now, but only to those who are prepared, and they can barely be heard with the din and loud sound of satans minions attacking and deriding the truth being given.....

I truly believe that those who experienced the great disappointment were on a much different level than we are today. They truly expected Jesus to come and their lives were prepared for the event (at least those who did not lose faith) Thus they were not "sleeping" as I would say most all are today. With a closer walk with Jesus a greater measure of the Holy Spirit is given. There can be different measures of the Holy Spirit, right? Didn't Elisha recieve a double portion of the Spirit Elijah had?

Was EGW inspired the same as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

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