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And geocentrists quoted their scriptures that show heliocentrism was wrong. ...
It wouldn't have been a problem if it was just Aristotelian astronomy that was challenged by Copernicus, the problem was it contradicted the plain reading of passages like Joshua's long day, where it is the sun Joshua commands to stand still or Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises. Here is what Cardinal Bellarmine said in 1615Actually the geocentrists were quoting the Aristotelian Astronomers (the scientists of their day). Just like today, some theologians went along wanted to be on the side of "science." But countless other theologians were very open to heliocentrism.
Sorry Assyrian, I couldn't let you get away with that little fib.
It wouldn't have been a problem if it was just Aristotelian astronomy that was challenged by Copernicus, the problem was it contradicted the plain reading of passages like Joshua's long day, .......[/INDENT]
Why not just discuss what scripture has to say about them? With the divine council interpretation of Genesis 1, do you elevate the angelic sons of God to image of God status, though it is never said that angels were created in his image? Or do you reduce the image of God in mankind to the attributes God shared with created angels, free will as you have mentioned and intelligence?Certainly the "let us..." may be the Father and the Son in conversation. But not necessarily so, as even many Christians hold other opinions. The concept of a divine council is entrenched in both Israelite and Caananite cultures. And the highest-ranking beings in it, the "sons of God", were certainly freewill beings with authority, because God put them in charge of mankind from the dispersion to perhaps as recently as the resurrection (Deut 32:7-9, Matt 28:18). How could they have been placed in charge of men if they were lesser beings than ourselves?
But in truth I'm not really sure how to respond to you, because you believe the oldest parts of the Bible are allegorical. I don't know if you believe that the sons of God were ever actually in charge of mankind, or if you even believe they actually exist.
Why not just discuss what scripture has to say about them? With the divine council interpretation of Genesis 1, do you elevate the angelic sons of God to image of God status, though it is never said that angels were created in his image? Or do you reduce the image of God in mankind to the attributes God shared with created angels, free will as you have mentioned and intelligence?
Who believed God stopped the earth rotating before Copernicus showed us the earth was rotating? The bible says Joshua commanded the sun to stop, the only reason not to take that literally was discovering from science that it was really the earth that was rotating rather than the sun moving round the earth.Utter nonsense. Countless theologians then and now believe God merely stopped the rotation of the earth supernaturally or used some other means as they were fine even then with heliocentrism.
People didn't need science to think the sun went round the earth, they just had to look outside and see the sun seeming to cross the sky day after day. Christians didn't need science to read about Joshua commanding the sun to stand still and think Joshua stopped the sun moving across the sky. It is the simple plain meaning of the text.The truth is, christian geocentrists were really just like you and modern TE's. They want desperately to be on the side of modern science, so they bend scripture whichever way that can to make if fit. You are, indeed, a modern version of an ancient geocentrist. Your thinking is identical to theirs.
I'm not being dogmatic, I am just saying there is a huge assumption that isn't supported in scripture and cuts across what we do understand about the image of God, limited and all as it is. We cannot arbitrarily ascribe meaning to the term 'sons of God' just because they suit our p.o.v. We don't know where the term came from, or why it was given, but scripture certainly ascribes limits to the angel's relationship with their creator. Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?Nor do you have any reason to be dogmatic they are not in the image of God. You just assume it for unknown reasons. But when you look at what makes us different from the animals, it would seem our moral awareness is what sets us apart, and both us and angels have that.
Plus, angels are referred to as the sons of God. That's a huge clue right there.
What do you think the "image of God" is?Why not just discuss what scripture has to say about them? With the divine council interpretation of Genesis 1, do you elevate the angelic sons of God to image of God status, though it is never said that angels were created in his image? Or do you reduce the image of God in mankind to the attributes God shared with created angels, free will as you have mentioned and intelligence?
Matt 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,What do you think the "image of God" is?
Who believed God stopped the earth rotating before Copernicus showed us the earth was rotating? The bible says Joshua commanded the sun to stop, the only reason not to take that literally was discovering from science that it was really the earth that was rotating rather than the sun moving round the earth.
How could the sun stop if it isn't moving? Stopping the earth rotating a force acting on the earth to decelerate its rotation. Stopping the sun orbiting the earth, if it did orbit the earth, would require a force acting on the sun to decelerate it.But the sun would literally stop if the earth stopped rotating. All movement is relative and can only be described from a point of reference. If the sun stopped today, modern astrophysicists would describe it as stopping in the sky, just as they refer to dusk as sunset. It is literally true from the reference of one standing on the earth. Now they also could get technical was to why the sun stopped and speak of the earth's orbit, but that doesn't meant that in reference to the land and sky it stopped.
How could the sun stop if it isn't moving?
OK. It seems to me that you're describing loving behavior, which might be described as "behaving" in the image of God.Matt 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil.
36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
1Pet 1:16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
1John 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
I see nothing in that text that teaches only loving people have been made in the image of God. Rather, one reason we shouldn't curse people is because they've been made in the likeness of God.How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so.
The sun and earth are both moving around the centre of the galaxy at the same rate, both experience the same gravitational pull, are in the same free fall orbit. It makes no difference to the motion of the solar system itself, and it is the motion of the earth and sun that was being discussed in Joshua. In the solar system it is the earth that orbits the sun, the sun only appears to move around the earth because the earth is rotating.But wait, the sun is moving! Right! Isn't the sun orbiting the center of the milky-way? See what a mess you get your self into when you deny the relativity of movement? You're trying to impose your own points of reference on the the Bible writers, and yet you are ignoring other points of reference.
The only way to intelligently describe movement is via points of reference. Otherwise you start to sound crazy.
There are no preferred reference points anywhere in the universe. Should the earth stop rotating, from Joshua's reference point on the earth's surface it's perfectly proper to say the sun stopped. Because it's what he observed from his point of view. Just as it's perfectly proper to conclude that the earth is moving under you when look down from an airplane. That's just Special Relativity being applied.How could the sun stop if it isn't moving? Stopping the earth rotating a force acting on the earth to decelerate its rotation. Stopping the sun orbiting the earth, if it did orbit the earth, would require a force acting on the sun to decelerate it.
What are your thoughts?
The sun and earth are both moving around the centre of the galaxy at the same rate, both experience the same gravitational pull, are in the same free fall orbit. It makes no difference to the motion of the solar system itself, and it is the motion of the earth and sun that was being discussed in Joshua. In the solar system it is the earth that orbits the sun, the sun only appears to move around the earth because the earth is rotating
As you said yourself, motion is relative and you need a frame of reference to describe it. In terms of our orbit around the centre of the galaxy, the sun and the earth are both in free fall. They share the same frame of reference and are not moving relative to each other because of the the gravitational pull of the galaxy. The movement in this frame of reference is made up of the earth's orbit around the sun and the earth's daily rotation.But you said the sun wasn't moving. By your own standards you're promoting a false cosmology. You see, even you are using a point of reference for movement, in this case the sun.
And if little Damian was jumping up and down on top of Tarquin would you tell Tarquin to sit still? You still haven't addressed the difference between spinning around in car park and watching cars drive around you on a traffic roundabout. There is a real difference between them which is why you fall over when you keep spinning around.But the truth is, all descriptions of movement must have points of reference. If you ask your kids to sit still in the back seat, the point of references is the car. You're are speaking literally and you're not asking them to jump out of the car, jump off the planet, or out of the galaxy. If a policeman says you failed to stop at the stop sign, the point of references is the land on which the street is. He's not asking you to stop rotating with the planet.
I agree Joshua was speaking literally, unfortunately the literal meaning is that it was the sun was moving around the earth and that it stopped moving when he commanded it.Joshua was speaking literally and properly in saying the sun stood still. If he wasn't then you also blundered saying the sun wasn't moving.
Do you think Joshua was speaking in terms of Special Relativity or do you think he really thought the sun went round the earth?There are no preferred reference points anywhere in the universe. Should the earth stop rotating, from Joshua's reference point on the earth's surface it's perfectly proper to say the sun stopped. Because it's what he observed from his point of view. Just as it's perfectly proper to conclude that the earth is moving under you when look down from an airplane. That's just Special Relativity being applied.
If I've misunderstood you, or am barking up the wrong tree, let me know.
I think it is in our capacity for mercy, empathy, love, even self sacrificial love that human beings most show the image of God who created us. Whether we actually act on that capacity or not is another matter. If people act in a way that is mercilessly selfish and cruel could they even be judged for that if there was nothing within them telling them they should act differently?OK. It seems to me that you're describing loving behavior, which might be described as "behaving" in the image of God.
But I've always been taught that all of us have been "made" in the image of God, whether we "behave" like him or not. For NT support I'll quote James:
I see nothing in that text that teaches only loving people have been made in the image of God. Rather, one reason we shouldn't curse people is because they've been made in the likeness of God.
Which is why I said you risk downgrading the image of God if it only refers to the characteristics God shares with angels. I think the image of God is something we are both only beginning to understand, I certainly am. The thing is, there is so much more potential to what the image of God can mean if it is the image of God, rather than the image of angels.So I don't think we're going to agree on whether any angelic beings are made in the image of God we don't agree on what that term means.
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